Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Mountaineers Route work project

The American Hiking Society is sponsoring a Mountaineers Route work project. From their web page:


From their registration form:

Registration Fee: American Hiking Society Member, $245 for First Trip per Calendar Year (Early Registration Discount: $220 if registering before February 28, 2010)

Non-Member, $275 First Trip per Calendar Year (Early Registration Discount: $250 if registering before February 28, 2010)

I would sure like to sign up. Five days in the North Fork, and by the end, I'd be really acclimated for a quick summit.

Unfortunately, my family comes first, and then there is that $$ fee.

I would love to do something to help the Whitney Zone also. Five days of what is described as strenous level of work, taking that amount of time off work and then you get to pay for that privilage. WOW how could anyone resist?

I don't mind volunteering - but I'm kinda confused by paying to volunteer.

Do they feed me? Bring me scotch? rub my weary feet?

This group is awesome. Even get a chance to be shot at.

I'm told the food is fantastic. Don't know about the fondling female femurs part, but you can bring your own SM.

Free.

http://trailcrew.org/

And they'll probably be turning people away . . .

Better not let Kurt Wedberg see this - may give him ideas.

Hey...I like this group. You can volunteer for free. We should swarm them this season =) It would be fun, an entire group of us hiking, working on the trail AND someone else making our dinner. I'll bring the scotch!

Hi All - Steve C. saw my post on WPS and invited a comment.

The American Hiking Society engages in more long term projects (such as the MR project posted above) - one week in duration. For those of us not near mountains and no able to do short volunteer stints, it works well.

The $220 covers everything except travel cost, I figure it as about $19 / day after the tax benefit. I'm all-in w/tent, sleeping bag, clothes (and yes, I planned on bringing a gallon of hard something-or-another).

For some of these deals, AHS provides airport pick-up, pack animals, cooks, etc. Not so w/ Whitney (although one of their other Inyo deals provides everything but pick-up). But for me, loving Whitney, + deducting the airfare, etc. --- it's great. May not work for everyone, though.

Interesting people come from all over the country (and even off shore) to join these outings. The last Whitney project I did with them had hydrology experts, geologists, etc. and it was fascinating and rewarding.

Hi Bulldog34...

See? Now the Sierra Mountaineering summer schedule for the MR is gonna get real interesting . . .

Take it from a military guy. Pay to volunteer? Not on my watch and not in my lifetime. Aint' gonna pay to play.

And what effect will this have on the quota for the MR?

$275 can buy a whole lotta things. Just check out Adventure 16's or REI's websites. Yes, $275.00 can buy a whole lotta bullets, too.

John Muir himself would have a hissy-fit.

Tell me (and my wife) to be there to work the trails for nothing and we will be locked and cocked and ready to rock. We will manage our out-of-pocket expenses. The only thing we would pay for are the permits for the days we will work.

Other than that, + @ti2d rests.

Just my thoughts.

Have fun.

Since my comment about + @ti2d went away with the "Outsiders" thread, I'll reiterate:

"I check out anything + @ti2d has to say - topically relevant or not, it's iron-clad guaranteed to be entertaining!"

And yes, 'Tude, you were topically relevant. Very.

The Sierra Club has a number of "Service Trips." I checked on one, Habitat Restoration at Point Reyes National Seashore, California. For that one, workers are charged $495.   I think the AHS is working in a similar mode.

It has been my hope that the Mt. Whitney Hikers Association could organize a work project like this in the future, IF we had enough paying memberships to support it.

I am hoping we could pay the expenses of a trail crew project out of the WHA funds, so workers would just need to show up. That certainly seems like it would be more fun than the workers paying through the nose for the "opportunity" to work.

Steve - you hit on the key point. These things don't happen for free. If someone is getting free food, someone else is paying (thank you Dr. Friedman). Tools cost money, as do gloves, pack animals, insurance, paperwork, regulatory and tax filings, etc.

At dinner one night at my last AHS Whitney outing someone remarked "I've never seen people who were paid work harder" and the place erupted in laughter. But it was absolutely true...everyone worked to exhaustion.

Sometimes people value things beyond the wallet. Other people are willing to pack out improperly disposed wag bags...not much money in that, either. Wonder why it happens?

$495 seems extreme. I'm sure the AHS fee carries a certain amount to cover overhead and maybe there is a small amount of involuntary donation. My sense is, not much. If I really wanted to be angry about wasted money my next hike would be Washington, and for that place there is no shovel big enough.

If you get something going with WHA projects, please let me know. I think the only real requirement to make it tax deductible is a properly formed 503(c)(3) entity, then a lot of time and energy. Don't feel bad about covering your costs (after all, nothing is free) and keep me in the loop.

I dunno Steve - if someone's not making a buck, is it really "community service" anymore? Folks offering their time, backs and hands for nothing more/less than a desire to help a cause - what's the world coming to?! You renegade you . . .

As some may have read elsewhere - "Notable Quote" . . .

gregf, you rock!

What is so difficult about participants being responsible for their own food? Two days car camping in the Portal??? Sounds like food out of the bear boxes to me. I admit that the rest of the logistics would have to be scrutinized, but I can tell you this: Doug Jr., has done a heck of a lot of work on the Mountaineer's Route, and I know that his costs were minimal, and tools consisted of shovels, loppers, and a lot of elbow grease.

Sorry, but I get skeptical whenever Associations(nothing against WHA) and Memberships get involved in tasks that used to be done from the heart.

B

> I get skeptical whenever Associations(nothing against WHA) and Memberships get involved in tasks that used to be done from the heart

Well, having worked on "pro bono" projects where I did the work alone, and where I worked in a group, I can tell you for sure: working in a group is a lot more fun and personally rewarding.

"Travel Information: No airport pickup is available. Closest airport is Reno/Tahoe in Reno, NV."

This is a minor point, but ... the closest airport is not Reno, it's Inyokern, about 90 minutes south of the Portal, with 3 shuttle flights a day to/from LA.

Further to Steve's points, there is no such thing as grabbing a shovel and pick ax and heading to the NF for some ersatz trail work when the mood strikes.

These things are all carefully planned. Whatever work is done involves consideration of the water table, erosion, ecological impact, etc. Considerable coordination with the authorities is paramount. A lot of times, projects are revised on the spot based upon discovery.

If a group is involved (as it must be, given previous), the dynamic changes even more.

A lot of people make non-profits their vocation. No one makes a living working at anything for free. It is a lot easier for such entities to execute these outings, by virtue of the work involved and the presence of existing staffing.

The fact that people would be willing to work and pay is something to be celebrated. If people at AHS and Sierra Club get paid, I don't have a problem with it. We're not forced to make those donations - it's a matter of choice.

What Steve is trying to do is truly honorable...just like the SAR people, he isn't getting a salary. I'll support his effort 100%, and yes, I would pay to be involved.

By the way, isn't Doug Sr. the local chapter head of the AHS? Maybe a locally-coordinated, joint effort might work even better.

Over the years I've occasionally volunteered to take part in trail maintenance of the AT here in Georgia, as well as some of the other trails that spider-web the Blue Ridge mountains in the northern part of the state. Not real often, mind you, but after every few hundred miles I begin to feel guilty about excessively using this masterpiece of a trail that others have broken their backs to maintain, so I volunteer for a day or two. Most of the work is organized and coordinated through the Georgia chapter of the ATC (Appalachian Trail Conference). I've never been asked to pay for the privelege of working a trail. I've had to supply my own tools at times, and BYO food/beverage, but it's generally a pretty straightforward effort. In fact, I can't recall ever seeing an AT or other eastern trail project that had a fee attached in addition to the volunteer effort - at least nothing more than maybe $15-20 a head for lunch and possibly group transportation from point A to point B.

The AT being the AT - the granddaddy of all big American trails, and an iconic national treasure - I would assume all maintenance work has to dance to the tune of as much (or more) regulatory red tape as any trail in the country. From an apple-to-apple perspective, I don't see the financial disparity. Below is a link to one of the more referenced websites for AT volunteer work - is there something that takes place in the Sierra that is dramatically different than here, or elsewhere in the country, that drives this "fee", or is it simply a matter of knowing your audience?

http://www.trailquest.net/trailmaint.html

It might be good to defer to Ken, George and other experts on this, but I'll give you a general impression, based upon lifelong exposure to the eastern forests and more recently the west.

The western forests are much more controlled and better managed. So, for example, trail work is managed down to the types of tools that may be used, the types of plants that might be transplanted, how and where check dams are to be built, etc.

I don't think that is so in the eastern forests, where local politics have had a much greater impact over a longer period ot time.

gregf -

I think you're making too broad a conclusion of the eastern forests based upon your experience with the Allegheny National Forest, which for your description, seems like a disaster. While I've not been to that one, I've been to many other Federal and state-administered forest in the east. On the whole, I don't see much difference in terms of management. There are regional differences in how wilderness regs are administered, however, which seem to reflect traditional regional uses for land. For example - one would never see cattle grazing in designated wilderness areas in the east, but is not uncommon in the west. The same is true of lumbering - while not common in my observation on either coast, I have seen lumbering occuring in designated wilderness in the Gifford Pinchot NF of Washington state.

The most stringent application of wilderness "ethics" in my experience is not in a nationally-managed forest. Rather, top honors in that category IMHO goes to Baxter SP in Maine.

Hi KevinR - I removed my rant about the Allegheny National Forest, probably about the time you posted a response. Good to hear your input, however. Maybe what happened there isn't widespread.

I want my grand kids to appreciate these wonderful places - I find it hard to check my emotions on this topic.

In this case a 275 dollar fee may be a bit much, you may be paying to work in an awesome location but with no pack support at spike camp it sounds like your going to be eating typical trail food, the crews I have been on had all the beer, wine, soda and good food you could want, never had I eaten so well in the back country, in that case I would probably be willing to pay 275 dollars to go on a crew.

One upside though is the fee may bring you more serious people, I have heard stories of people on trail crews that were worthless, even heard of a guy that was going to hike 20 miles to a lake after work because he just had to have a bath, he got lost and had to be rescued.

Thanks for the input guys. Kinda confirms my thinking that there's just not a lot of difference in the actual maintenance that would push the imbedded cost from zero to $300 or $400 from one coast to another.

Like I said - knowing your audience. The airport information in the announcement is a big giveaway to me about the target market for this opportunity. I have no doubt it'll be a full trail crew, with everyone in attendance overjoyed to pay the $275 to work the MR. And that's fine by me - it's capitalism at work, no matter how you slice it or dice it, and whatever the market will bear is fair game.

I just won't be rushing to get my app in this time around. Nor am I planning to sell all my worldly possessions, give it to a charismatic cult leader, and then happily suicide before the aliens arrive. Different strokes and all that. It would be a really boring world if everyone was the same, right?

I'm with you Rogue - hard work, good times, get dirty. That's enough for me.

R-Photonic:

I thought the food was good on the last Whitney outing - hot meals, big stove stuff - but some of the other more seasoned vets (projects all over the country) felt is was less-than-average compared with other trips.

There was plenty of good drinks but much of it was supplied by the individuals. The vets said on other trips it was gratis. The FS handled the money (I believe) so maybe that's why it worked that way.

You are right about the group - extremely hard working people. No one was auditing the ledger sheet to see whether they were getting their money's worth. As I recall there were about a dozen people and I think I was the only private sector guy. All the rest were non-profits, ranging from university researchers, government workers, teachers, etc. Not a single laggard and all very interesting people.

Normally these trips fill up in a matter of days - not so this time. Maybe everyone is pulling back.

gregf wrote:
> I thought the food was good on the last Whitney outing

Greg, on which trail was that? Was it pack-train supplied?

Steve - it was a Main Trail event, no pack animals. We stayed at the ranger camp above Big Horn Park - there was a full event-style tent there (w/ a wood floor, as I recall) and two big stoves. Everyone slept in their own tents - there was room in the big tent (for ~4-5 people) but no mosquito screens.

We hauled up a lot of stuff from the portal in 2 trips. The first night was at the portal and the first full day was hauling stuff to BHP. The second day we broke camp, hauled up the rest of the stuff and started the project at BHP. After that rangers and others were always going back and forth between there and the portal so it wasn't a big problem getting tools, gear and food up there. Great accommodations, overall. There was talk about moving to Trail Camp for additional work but we just did that as a day hike. That would have been a bit more rustic.

I think we can all agree, this isn't a car-camp deal.

On the last day all but a few decided on a summit. Everyone made it under some tricky snow / ice conditions.

I'm curious why the AHS trip is not filling up. As mentioned earlier, in the past it was booked in days. I've emailed some of the vets to see if they were disappointed in the food, or anything else. A lot of these people had 10+ of these trips in their portfolios...all over the continent. That feedback might be valuable. A case can be made that in general, charitable donation and / or work is stupid at worst or irrational at best. My guess is that's not the calculus of people like these. I'll let you know what they say.

I'm coming into the conversation a little late, but I'll say that I've done trips with both the groups mentioned here.

I am trained as a Group Leader with AHS, although I've not had the chance to do that. I did a trip with them into the Cottonwood area for a week, up the South fork trail, and worked the trail from Long Lake to NAP, and from South Fork Lake #1 to Cirque Lake. My experience was excellent. They had very experienced and skilled leaders(one was the Wilderness Manager for Whitney--you want to affect policy, this is the guy to spend a week with!), the food was amazing (packer supported trip), the participants were fun. I believe that I was the only person from California, and a number of people were veterans of this group. They clearly enjoyed this as a vacation, and liked that there was a organizing entity that took care of the details, that they could depend upon. I think that is the key, that they were from far away, and dependent upon others to make their vacation work.

I am also a Crew Leader, and trail skills instructor for the High Sierra Volunteer Trail Crew. I've done perhaps 30 trips with them, and am often the crew leader. The makeup of the people is quite different. It is primarily local people. They are doing a job on the Inyo in May, to replace the bridge on the PCT 2 miles north of Kennedy Meadows. I'll be doing several trips with them this year, including week-long backpacking trips in the deep Sierra. I've seen a lot of terrain that I would never have, if not for these trips.

The second group's trips are free, however, they spend enormous amounts of time fundraising, and it is a big effort to support their schedule. I'm sure it is over $100k, and it is limited to really 1 or 2 forests.

This stuff is astonishingly expensive to put together, and I guess it becomes a balance between having paid employees (both do), fundraising, organizing. I'm sure these represent two of several models.

While somewhat differently organized, I'll say that I have enjoyed working with both groups a lot, and think very highly of the work they do.

Not sure I should wade in here, but since SAR was mentioned, I'll give it a shot.

My out-of-pocket SAR expenses are considerable. Outside donations to my team (the CLMRG) go for group things such as radios, stretchers, and gas for SAR operations, but we members are responsible for our own expenses. Those expenses include not just gear and food, but also the costs of training, conditioning, and familiarization climbs. So it can cost money to volunteer. You do it because you are helping out, and because you get satisfaction from doing so.

Every bonafide charitable organization is nonprofit. They have income and they have expenses, and their directors decide how they should operate. To help a charitable organization, sometimes you donate time, like being a docent in a museum. Sometimes you donate money, as to the American Heart Association. And sometimes you donate both, as in SAR and--evidently--some trail maintenance activities.

For the costs associated with my volunteer activities, I'm not paying it to some hiking society. I'm paying it to REI, Albertsons, and Chevron. And, on rare occasions, to the local emergency room. No matter, it's all money out of my pocket.

It doesn't matter if it's an injured person on a cliff or a rundown trail, you get to decide whether you want to play the game. If the cost to you--in time and/or money--is worth the satisfaction you are getting out of it, you do it.

Costs are real. The AHS directors have evidently decided to pass some of it on to the volunteers, rather than suck it up themselves or look for outside donations. If you find that grating, there are plenty of other worthy organizations to devote your charitable energies to.

If viewed in a purely cynical light and based solely upon economics, no one would ever do anything charitable. Bob R. is right, the psychic value is the big driver, and the more of that the better. I live in a world of economics and cynicism and the less of that coming my way, the happier I am.

I marvel at those who would spent time and treasure, year-after-year, to travel all over and do these trail projects ...giving up vacation time and money. More admirable might be the patience and forbearance of the spouses. Maybe some of those folks would do SAR work if they were closer to the mountains, or if they had the abilities to do so. Whatever their motivations, it is something to be celebrated and not cavalierly dismissed, or conveniently rationalized.

The AHS is OK -- I red-lined the Sierra Club membership because it was a bit too granola for me, too big and too disparate. Overall, I like the communications that come from AHS, what they do in Washington, and their focus. The list of stuff I'm supposed to believe is much less with AHS than the Sierra Club. Like Bob said, everyone makes their own decisions on these things. But for what it's worth, I think AHS is a worthy operation and I'm glad Ken had some good things to say about them, too.

Smaller, local groups like Steve's and Friends of the Inyo would probably be better still, so I'm hoping the momentum keeps building there. In that regard, some of the best advice is RoguePhotonic's comment, above. You want quality people on these outings - that's what makes it work.

Guys, my apologies if I came across as cavalier in my comments on this topic. It was not my intent. I have this annoying habit of expanding beyond a target discussion at times, as my wife will enthusiastically attest to.

An individual's participation in charities and community service (two completely separate things to my thinking) is always commendable, particularly as opposed to doing nothing, and I would never, ever, sell short the voluntary efforts or donations of someone who wants to make a difference.

Healthy skepticism (and yes, cynicism at times) for any good-deed organization asking me to open my wallet, I readily admit to. Having been burned - badly, and multiple times - by the various scandals surrounding the United Way over past years, I have learned the hard way to exercise extreme caution when it comes to "donations". For me it's a Pavlovian response, and I promised myself years ago that I would, in the future, only deliver time and money where I can actually see and confirm the beneficial use of my efforts. I don't like approaching good works that way, but we can thank the UW snakepit for that conditioning.

For myself personally, direct children's charities are my passion, specifically the Children's Miracle Network (catastrophically ill children's healthcare) and the Youth Challenge Academies (voluntary lifeskills bootcamps for troubled teens). Coincidentally, my wife and I board an Air Force C-130 early tomorrow morning for a daytrip to Fort Gordon for an annual review and status report of the current YCA classes underway in Georgia. Along with regular visits to the Children's Healthcare of Atlanta hospitals, we can see up close and personal the impact our donations and time have on kids, and for us that brings fulfilment.

Regarding the AHS project that started this thread - after doing some additional research on their website I see that my conclusion about the nature of this particular project versus my past experience was erroneous, and was not a proper apple-to-apple comparison. The AHS has about two dozen of these projects available all over the country in 2010. There is no differentiation between a Whitney project and those in the various locations of the East or elsewhere. They all have the exact same fee structure attached, and are presented as "Volunteer Vacation" opportunities. That changes the perspective for me, and I should have done a little more homework before drawing a bullseye on this particular project. My bad.