Mt Whitney Zone Forums Gear Heads Kahtoola Microspikes

Do you guys wear "microspikes" of any kind or these in particular, or do you carry them on a regular basis just in case? I've seen a photo of them on old tennis shoes which just seems insane to me. How steep of ice would you wear them on over leather boots? How about glaciers or solid ice? I'm wondering where I can draw a line and leave the crampons at home, since I only have 12 point full on crampons and I always wear them on plastic or leather full on boots. I would imagine that they would be great for your self confidence on the final approach to the Smithsonian hut.

While I'm at it, what percentage of you carry an ice axe while peakbagging above 13,000'? Poles? Do you know how to self arrest with hiking poles? Would you like to? I threw away my Black Diamond self arrest hiking pole handles. If you've ever done an arrest on a bad fall you know why, you feel like your arm has been stretched about three feet and I'm sure it would rip the handle right off the pole, but there is another method used by extreme back country skiers.

I live near the Three Sisters in the Cascades and I'm considering a solo winter climb/hike up to the base of the glaciers at 8,000' which translates to about 15,000' in California. ha ha
Jim

Here's the Kahtoola Microspikes picture (from backcountry.com):



And YakTrax (image from Cabelas.com)


The ad for Microspikes reads, "When heading out on the sidewalk feels like a trek onto the Antarctic ice sheet, strap on the Kahtoola MICROspikes Traction System, and get durable grip on even the slickest surfaces."

I don't think they are recommended for anything but a casual walk.

Regarding self arrest, I've never heard of using hiking poles. Wouldn't they just bend or break?

My wife has Yak Trax. On the Backcountry forum there are people saying that they use Microspikes in place of crampons, worn on trailrunners, on moderate ice. I assumed that peak baggers would carry them like for instance theres snow on the final approach to the peak of Mt Whitney.

For self arrest with a ski pole You would say continue to hold the handle of the right pole in your right hand (especially because of the strap holding it there) and grab the right pole with your left hand and slide your left hand down to the basket and dig the pointed end in, using both shoulders to force it into the snow. On snow this works, and for skiers it might help swing your skis below you so you can go back to skiing. For hikers, without some way to arrest, if you fall on even moderately steep snow, you are apt to continue sliding until you hit something or go off an edge (Especially wearing nylon outer garmets). Its a good thing to know. I got rid of my self arrest pole handles because I thought they would simply come off from the force.
jim

I am so old school on this. I like a minimum of 10 points of steel on my feet...but then I usually going where there at least moderate exposure. I've thought about picking up a pair of Microspikes but it's an expense vs. use thingy.

999 out of 1,000 times the person using these along with trekking poles are going be ok. The problem is the the one totally disastrous time. It's no fun watching or being that one time.

wbtravis
I'm not getting much response to this, do you carry ten points and crampon boots peak bagging or on Mt Whitney or what ever? DO most people ignore the ice? Carry axes? I'm trying to learn what people in this group do. I'm pretty tempted to use them on the glaciers above town but on mid weight hiking boots. But obviously not in couloirs or on technical ice.
Jim

Jim,

I did the group hike to Thor 2 days after the huge "Monsoon" in October, and two of my buddies used minispikes for the ascent. The big however, here, is the fact that AxeMan had cut nice little steps into the snow with his AXE (thus his name) so that there was no verticle gripping required.While I did not own spikes at the time and was able to make the climb without any extra grip, my buddies had an easier time with the spikes. During that same weekend, one of the guys summited Whitney using spikes, but had to use crampons coming down. I would never consider minispikes as any sort of replacement for crampons, if the conditions call for crampons, however, they are great to carry as a just-in-case item for marginal conditions. As far as the Ice Axe goes, you will see a flurry of "do you think I need an ice axe?" posts just before any snowy ascent of any of the WZ peaks, and there will be many different answers. I, of course, just ask Bob R. and I would fee comfortable with his answers under any circumstance, because I have hiked with him and I like his style and trust his judgement...and he is on the mountain very frequently. You have to trust the people you are getting advice from.

B

Jim -

My take on the crampons/microspikes and poles/ice ax is as follows -

I'm a transplanted Vermonter living in the eastern Sierra, and I did winter hiking for years in mountains of VT and NH. A typical pattern there requires snowshoes for the first few days after a storm to pack out the trails. A week or so after a storm on popular trails means the treadway may have turned icy, so some type of gripper helps. Before microspikes, people tended to use 6-point crampons or stabilizers for conditions where a fall might result in bruising or possibly a broken wrist or ankle, but there was no real exposure issues. When crossing the occasional AV path, or above treeline where there was exposure, people switch over to crampons. So, on some hikes many hikers carry snowshoes, microspikes and crampons, and may use all 3 at some point during the day.

Microspikes have 2 primary advantages - they're light and you don't tend to trip as often since the spikes are short, so between the two people tend to wear them longer, which may result in fewer injuries overall. But, in situations where a fall may result in serious injury or worse - crampons are clearly the choice.

As for poles versus an axe - that's another situational issue as far as I'm concerned. Clearly, in a situation where a fall is likely to result in injury or worse if a self-arrest isn't attempted I use an ax. However, if the goal is not to slip in the first place, then poles have a clear advantage over an ice ax. So, sometimes I'll continue to use my poles when others are using an axe.

Here's an example - when doing Shasta via AV Gulch in May/June/early July, I use poles to Helen Lake and continue with them up to at least Red Banks. Usually I go thru the 3rd slot or even to the right towards the Thumb and if the snow isn't too hard will continue with the poles to the summit. However, if the snow is very hard, or I go left where it's steeper, I'll switch over to the axe until above Red Banks. And, the axe is out for the glissade down.

Another example - when doing Baldy via the Ski Hut, I use microspikes to the hut, and then crampons to the summit.

When Yaktrax first came out, they didn't have the strap over the instep, so they'd fall off regularly and I'd find them all over the trails. I guess they've improved them, so they might be useful for hiking (as opposed to walking across an icy parking lot) but personally I think they're are better choices for the same $$.

Microspikes come in different sizes, so don't assume your big ol' insulated boots require the large size. Fit them to the boots, the same way you'd do it with crampons.

Hope this helps.

Thanks all for the input. You pretty much share my opinion of the usefulness of the microspikes. I think they will be my next purchase, but anything over about 20 degrees or solid ice I think the crampons are the way to go, unfortunately I only have 12 points. The goofballs that advocate microspikes on steep ice also wear them on trail runners. They probably don't have axes cause they're too heavy.
Jim

Jim -

To follow-up on South Sister: I've never done it in winter, but have done it 4 times in summer. Assuming the locals use the same trail/route year-round - I'd say the first couple of miles as it switchbacks up to treeline it might be a toss-up as which is the better "tool", but once you hit treeline and it levels out (more of less) for a couple of miles until you hit the last mile or two of steeps I'd say microspikes would be just the ticket. Of course, this assumes the snow is consolidated enough that you don't need snowshoes.

There are some mountains/routes I just wouldn't bother with microspikes. Whitney via the main trail and Shasta via AV Gulch is another. The first bit from Bunny Flats to Horse Camp is pretty mellow, as is the first 1/2 mile on Oberman's Causeway, but overall, it's crampon territory and microspikes would be unnecessary ounces.

Kevin

When I first started using crampons, I did something really stupid and paid a moderate price for that act. A few years later I witnessed a particularly nasty climbing accident, which required a helicopter rescue.

Since the latter, I've erred on the side of caution. If there is exposure, the axe comes out and crampons go on. If I'm carrying crampons and an axe I will also bring a helmet. I've got this thing about not being film at 11. I know I am atypical most hikers who attempt to summit in the spring/early summer.

The only and only time I have backpacked up the MMWT with the intentions to summit was in May 2007. I carried the above gear. I use light 3-season synthetic mountaineering boots in the winter because I do not want to haul an extra pound or two up water up the trail...which means this what I would use in the spring here...they are lighter than my Kayland Contact 1000s.

During that trip many, and the sample was not all that big, most climbed the chute to Trail Crest in 4 pts. and trekking poles. That is insanity to me.

Thanks wb
I won't be on the South Sisters trail. I will approach from the north east on the Green lakes trail then head cross country alone to the base of Carver glacier to check out Carver Lake which they say could land on my home if the moraine crumbles. I might hike in La Sportiva Makalu boots and carry the 12 points and a Grivel Airtech axe.
Thanks again, I'm glad somebody still goes prepared besides me.
Jim

Jim, it's strictly a matter of comfort.

On Ouray last week, the attendants turning on the sprinklers at the end of the day were scrambling, unroped, unfixed, along the top of the walls wearing the microspikes as they turned on the shower heads at the end of the day. There was an established boot track from their activities, but would I have the guts to hang out along the edge of a 100-150ft drop on solid ice? Not so much.

Now, I'm one of those types who'd rather be over-prepared than have to turn back because I didn't have the right equipment (had to do that last year on Thunderbolt and I was not happy). I don't mind carrying the weight, and I don't necessarily quibble over ounces. So, if I think I might need the 'pons and axe, they go on the pack. Period. If there's a question, the axe goes and the 'pons stay at home. I love the usual security I feel when wearing any of my 'pons, but I also make sure to practice self-arrest whenever I can.

The WZ presents a more unique problem in that you get a higher percentage of noobs who don't know how to use the equipment, much less want to carry it. In about another month, I would expect the ringing chorus of "do I need to take this crap?" to start up both here and on the WPSMB. wbtravis is usually one of the logical heads who says, "Yes, you both need the crap and the KNOWLEDGE of how to use them appropriately" to those questions. It's not as simple a question of take them or not.

And yes, I've had to perform a self-arrest, with a full pack, and while wearing crampons, on a glacier (the Warlow glacier in Evolution Basin last summer). The axe almost pulled out of my hands and it was everything I could do to keep my feet up and not jab my front points into the snow, risking a broken ankle/leg. Whenever I've climbed Whitney in snow conditions on the MR, I've worn 'pons and used both poles or axe and been comfortable. In the snow conditions along the trail last June with my dad, I left the 'pons at home and was fine. Hiking across the Palisade glacier in fresh snow last spring, we left the crampons off until we started up the U-notch, and even then were up to our waists so probably could have left them off.

So much is terrain, current condition and climber-comfort specific, that it makes the answer to your original questions difficult. But I think wb's advice, if you feel you need them, put them on, is spot on, and I know he would tender that by adding to know how to stop when sliding.

Have fun,
L

Now Laura, I don't say "crap" over there. I'm more civil and genteel than that.

Over there, I've been chastised for suggest people don't come, something I've never said. I do believe the gram counters who believe they can do the MMWT safely, and the key word is safely, with no experience are fools. What I've always said is don't go higher than you can descend safely. I've seen way too many people in I've really screwed up, what do I do now position.

All the noobs need to do spend previous winter reading Freedom of the Hills to get a clue, practicing and when spring rolls if they have an once of brains in the skulls they will throw $125 at SMI or SMC in Bishop for their excellent snow travel course.

It is my belief the same accidents occur at Mt. Whitney only the names of the victims change...unfortunately.

BTW, in a month or so they will not be asking about axes over there, only clamp-ons.

You are so right, wb, on all counts. (Note to self: do not attempt meaningful post at 0400 before coffee). I know I've pulled out of most of those conversations on ALL boards because it is such an exercise in frustration. You were one of the few brave people willing to tell people to not go higher than what they feel safe doing, and people don't like to hear that. In my opinion, no one wants to do the "work" involved in being safe up there. I've tried encouraging people in that direction also: learning skills elsewhere than the WZ, then applying them. Yeah: that goes over well.

<sigh> Guess I'll just go back and sit in my corner again.

Laura -

Laura,

I'm not chastising you. There is no need to corner yourself.

Not taken that way at all, my dear. I've been self-cornering for a while. There is just too much drama associated with all of it, and I also get upset when I think of how so many accidents could be prevented if people would just take a few minutes to prepare themselves. I mean, it's my job professionally as well as for my passion. Can't escape it!

We live in a very immature, impatient society -- everybody wants everything, immediately. Where folks once planted seeds and nurtured them to fruition, now they buy ready grown plants, stick them in the ground, and pick the tomatoes three weeks later....It is the same with skiing, hiking -- fill in the blank: today: the idea, tomorrow: buy the equipment, next weekend: climb the glacier....and the obit is printed the following Tuesday. I took up hiking less than a year ago, and it is amazing the number of people who are "shocked" that I have not done Whitney, yet. It's a darn good thing, too, because I have made some profoundly bad decisions in the past 8 months -- decisions that could have been fatal in a less forgiving environment. For the moment, time is on my side, and when the conditions and company are aligned, I will make my summit bid.

B

PS Laura, I loved your Colorado pix! Do I understand correctly that they "seed" the ice by turning on water spigots at night????? Seems like some urban "waterfalls" could bee created that way! (I once saw a picture of a frozen "waterfall" hanging from a building where a water line had broken over night)

Couldn't agree with you more.

CaT

I started getting serious about this stuff in ~2000...at the age of 49. I bought a pair of snowshoes. When the snowshoes wouldn't take me where I wanted to go, I bought a pair of crampons, when I glissaded with my crampons on using a pair of trekking poles as a brake and ripped out the ass of my Gore-Tex pants and severely spraing my ankle I bought an axe, when I decided I really did not want kill myself I arranged a weekend in Bishop with SMC for a snow travel course and when I finally felt comfortable enough with my skills I decided to conquer Mt. Whitney in May 2007.

As my build my skill level I get to see more and more of what I want to see in winter. Experience has informed me, these mountains are not going anywhere, they will be there when my skills are up to the challenge.

Bee and wbtravis -
I'm right there with ya! I've been day (photo) hiking in the Sierras for years and just started backpacking last year at 44. I've been asked about hiking Whitney many times via the trail and MR. No thank you right now! It is on my list of things that I want to do, but only when I'm good and ready.
I have learned about the proper equipment from people this board and friends like Laura. I know I have the right gear...probably more than I need ;), but lack the skills to use it properly.
A good education, training, and lots of practice are the things that will get me up to the summit safely. In fact, I just sent an email to SMI last night to sign up for their snow travel course...you gotta start somewhere, it might as well be here and now!
Stacy

Bee, you're so right it's almost painful. Instant gratification is the name of the game nowdays, and it's unlikely to get better. Your timeline summary above is just so perfectly succinct.

Anything beyond some simple Class 4 stuff is beyond me, as is anything involving ice - and they'll pretty much stay that way. Hope you get to take your shot at Whitney this summer - and if you choose not to, that's good too. "Hike your own hike" is about the best advice out there. The point of what we do outdoors - as Mr. + @ti2d is always reminding us - is to "have fun!"

Also, how's the frostbite treating you? Weren't you looking for some hand-warming solutions earlier this winter? Find anything that worked?

Biletchick,

It will be the best money you have ever spent. Be prepared to work your rear end off that day. I was totally exhaust after our day with the folks from SMC...and I thought I was in excellent shape.

The problem locally is finding places to practice, since the easy ones are all used for sledding.

I did not want to sound too crass, but the point needed to be made. I was once told that a few skills are worse than no skills at all, because with a little skill one gets a false sense of confidence without the experience to prop it up.

Bulldog: While nothing will help the swelling, etc., when my hands get cold, the key is to be found in keeping the core warm (like so many had mentioned)I re-entered the gym and began a serious training program to gain about 20lbs of muscle (and a small amount of fat), because by all accounts, I was a bit underweight. The extra weight had a profound impact on 1) my endurance 2) my ability to tolerate the cold

I'm finally off of IR and back out playing in the snow in Icehouse Canyon. It's good to out and about after 13 weeks.

My favorite gear faux pas of the day. Snowboarding helmet, Yaktrax and an ice axe.

Man, I'd love to have the all the money spent on Yaktrax in that canyon today. I could retire and buy a small third world country.

Bee, glad to hear that you found a solution that doesn't involve relying on aids. Ever since I read your story of the skiing ordeal that started it all, I've hoped you could land on something that would allow you to keep doing what you loved without endangering yourself further. As so many people mentioned in previous posts, the core is key in circulation - and so much else.

No pork to be found in that photo - lean and mean!

[quote=Bee]I did not want to sound too crass, but the point needed to be made. I was once told that a few skills are worse than no skills at all, because with a little skill one gets a false sense of confidence without the experience to prop it up.

Bulldog: While nothing will help the swelling, etc., when my hands get cold, the key is to be found in keeping the core warm (like so many had mentioned)I re-entered the gym and began a serious training program to gain about 20lbs of muscle (and a small amount of fat), because by all accounts, I was a bit underweight. The extra weight had a profound impact on 1) my endurance 2) my ability to withstand the cold.

You rook MAH-velous, dahlink! And I've never been able to a chinup. Jealous...

Thank you , Miss Laura. I now do three sets of 4 chin-ups, alternating with three sets of 10 face-almost-touching-the-ground push-ups & three sets of 10 bar dips on the even paralell bars (guys look at me really weird when I do those)& about 10 sets of different crunches. The rest is seated rows, pull-downs, & tossing around a few free weights (my most unfavorite of the exercises).....and I try to eat meat (Not for any philosophical reasons, I have eaten very little meat most of my life -- except for burgers, of course!)

B

That is a killer workout Bee. I am impressed.
Bulldog34 can confer about Hershel Walker one of the best and strongest football players in history. He has never lifted a weight in his life. Everything he does, besides his martial arts, is push-ups,sit-ups,pull-ups etc.He is absolutely ripped.

Amen Rod. And add world-class speed to that freakish repertoire. I had the dubious pleasure of watching him blow my doors off in a 100 yard sprint during the summer of 1977. We were both junior classmen at the time - the difference being that I was 20 and a college junior while he was 15 and a high school junior. He left me standing in the starting blocks like I had never experienced before, and I had been running the sprints for 7 years, competing regularly against guys that eventually won gold in the Olympics (Edwin Moses and Carl Lewis come to mind). I had never seen anyone explode out of the blocks like Herschel could. Without a doubt, Herschel could easily have been a top-notch Olympic sprinter if he had wanted to go that route. And oh yeah, I gave up track shortly thereafter . . .

Aside from winning a national championship for the Georgia Bulldogs in 1980 (as a true freshman) as well as a Heisman trophy, Herschel scored several hundred touchdowns in his collegiate, USFL and NFL careers. After every single one he calmly and politely handed the ball to the official and jogged to the sidelines. Not once did he ever perform a "look at me" sideshow or antic. He never even spiked the ball. Amazing character and humility to go with his one-of-a-kind skill set. Also an Olympic bobsledder; and now a professional martial artist - at age 47. Very impressive guy all the way around.

And yes, he wore # 34 for the Bulldogs. Hmmmm, sounds familiar . . .

I am going to try and post some pictures of him when we filmed him.(I have to find them) I will at least get the pic of me and my wife posed with him.Amazingly humble and complete polite gentleman.

Hmmm....wasn't he outplayed in a certain Curt Warner in a game in New Orleans on New Years Day 1983. If I'm not mistaken, the game was for the National Championship.

I have to remind my two UGA bosses of this every now and again.

'83 Sugar Bowl - I was there, as it happens. I prefer to think of that team as Todd Blackledge's Nittany Lions - that way I get to scream at him on TV during fall weekends when he's broadcasting games. UGA was undefeated and ranked # 1, PSU was # 2 - one of the few #1 vs #2 national championship games in bowl history before the BCS came along. I hated that game - even getting blitzed on Bourbon Street afterwards was no fun.

What most people don't remember about that game - and Herschel's relatively poor performance (barely 100 yds, if I recall correctly) - was that it was his last game for the Bulldogs, but no one knew it at the time except Donald Trump and Herschel, who was a junior and ineligible for the NFL till the following year when his class had graduated (oh, for the old days - times, they have a'changed!).

A few days later, Trump announced his USFL NJ Generals and Herschel as the first signee, causing quite an uproar here in the Peach State. Later on Herschel attributed his lackluster performance in that national championship game to the guilt and dread of announcing he was leaving early. The only time in 30 years I was ever mad at the guy, but he did what was right for him at the time I suppose. That 3-year move cost him $$$ in the long run, though, as well as a few potential records in the NFL.

Scariest sight for pro linebackers and safeties in the late '80s was seeing Herschel swinging out of the backfield as a receiver, then catching the ball with a full head of steam already generated. He was fast, but he also loved to run people over. Guess that's why he's in martial arts now.

And I like your UGA bosses already - old joke: What does a Ga Tech grad call a UGA grad? Boss. OK, I'll admit it - my current boss is a Penn State grad . . .

I hate Penn State for diiferent reasons.My son played for Pitt and even though they no longer play each other they are natural rivals. They hate each other like any other great in state rivalry.They don't play each other because of JoPa. Poor loser

Gee Rod, how do you really feel? Don't be shy - tell us!

Sorta the way I feel about Florida . . .

Or could it be because Penn State is in the Big 10 and Pitt is in the Big East?

CaT

No CaT they used to be in the same league and when Penn St left for the Big 10 they still played each other.They played each other for 100 years or so. Huge Pennsylvania state rivalry.When Pitt became a part of the Big East they were still playing each other.
We are a long way off the Microspikes topic.Oh well.Funny how a thread can twist and snake.

BTW I am still very impressed with Bee putting on 20lbs of muscle, strengthening her core on a great workout.

Conference alignments have killed some very historic natural rivalries (Oklahoma/Nebraska being foremost), but with a 12-game schedule now there's absolutely no reason for natural rivals in separate conferences not to play annually. Pitt has 7 conference games and Penn State 8, so plenty of room to schedule it every year. Each year 3 teams from the SEC play in-state rivals from the ACC - Georgia, South Carolina and Florida play Georgia Tech, Clemson and Florida State respectively. Kentucky (SEC) plays Louisville (Big East) annually, as do Iowa (Big 10) and Iowa State (Big 12). Notre Dame and USC find the time to play each other every year, and there's no legitimate reason for that other than tradition.

So I'm guessing Joe Pa is too attached to the Akrons, Coastal Carolinas and Florida Internationals that litter Penn State's open schedule slots to waste time on old, boring Pitt/PSU . . .

And yeah, Bee is rockin' on!

Thanks, Rod. The reactions to the visible changes have been amusing; some people are almost uncomfortable FOR me to mention that I have gained weight (under almost all circumstances, it would be a bad thing). To me, my own strength is a marvel, as I pike and maneuver on the paralell bars, enjoying the graceful benefits of muscle control.

Mostly, I am happy to realize that useable strength can bee gained without lifting an ounce of iron (Occasonally, I toss a few free weights around, but the gains are not nearly the same)Also, I am delighted to know that one of my father's admired football heroes adheres to the same type of program!

And, by the way, should I ever find myself hanging off a bridge, I can now rescue myself!

B

Bee,
That is an impressive funtional improvement to your body.That upper body strength will come in handy if needed. Hope you never need to rescue yourself from anywhere especially hanging on a bridge.
BTW did you see my response to your question about The Cowboy Festival? I think many of us have that urban cowboy/girl in us.The Melody Ranch is my front yard.

Now, now boys, be good losers.

Personally, I do not like Penn State not playing Pitt. I think that game or the WVA should have remained on their schedule when they went to the Big 11. That game was a great way to spend Black Friday. I can do without Akron, Temple and Coastal Carolina.

Bulldog 34,

Not only did Warner outplay Walker in '83, he out played Heisman Trophy winner Marcus Allen in their bowl match up in December 1981. Warner had one heck of offensive line, 4 of those guys went in the 1st round and 1 in the 2nd of the NFL Draft. He had a good NFL until he blew out his knee.

Hmmm...at one time we had a Tech guy working for us. Man, did that get hilarious from time to time.

I bet . . . especially since UGA has an 9-for-10 run going in the series.