Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Hiker trash- WAG BAGs

Now, now, Bob West! There you go provoking temper tantrums again (have we not talked about this before??). I know its tempting and incredibly easy to bring out all the red unhappy faces (too bad they don't have one with tears) But a fine upstanding Elitist(one that seemed to find time to participate in rescues...strange sort of elitist) such as yourself (I bow in your presence) can exhibit much better restraint when messing about with the unwashed masses (also known as commoners}. How dare you offer a unique and unrepresented position that actually addresses solutions rather than more complaints??? Don't you know that this is the Land of Rights? (They have not gotten around to adding all of the personalized entitlements to the Constitution, but I just know that they have saved a spot for one that allows for each and every citizen to hike anywhere anytime...It's a Free Country, after all). Cost? Oh, yeah, remember that 10ft pile of trash I told you about? (down there off the PCT near Lake Warren) Well, the beauty of it is that it will probably be there 100years from now welcoming me like an old friend, 'cause A)It's granite, by golly, soz nothing lost, nothing gained....except a 10ft pile of trash B) It's a National Forest, so no permits & no rangers to disturb the "Piece" -- that is, Piece of Trash. So you just shut yer gob about all this, Bob, 'cause there aint nothin' to worry about (in a few years, we will all grow so accustomed to those WAG Bags adorning the trail that they will almost seem welcoming buddies)

Your Friend always,

Bee

Bob, don't feel bad, I'm been labeled as one of those "pot stirrers" by a professional meeting facilitator. Every team needs one to get the very best result out of the group - to question assumptions and overcome groupthink syndrome. That particular team included a dozen engineers from 2 federal agencies, a state agency, local agency, and consultants tasked with selecting the best alternative for a $1 billion project. I'm still heavily involved in the project six years later.

But I disagree with the heavy handed approach you propose. I think well maintained solar toilets are the way to go, which was the original plan before they hijacked the environmental process with this wag bag experiment. Just contract out the maintenance and use llamas, mules, or a couple helicopter trips each season. It works great under similar conditions in Colorado, what, we can't figure it out here in California?

Once more up on the soap box:

I was hoping to see more support or additional ideas on how to clean up our play yard.

What I see is support of my last line and attacks on one anothers viewpoint-
'The effects of popularity- more use-generates more abuse- resulting in a place that we don't want to go to, or gets restricted so we can't....'
Burchey doesn't care because Mt Whitney has turned into a place he doesn't want to go to anymore; and Bob wants to restrict its use. Neither approach cleans up the mess...

If concerned hikers each pick up a little bit; so they leave where they go better than they found it; We become the army of volunteers, who over time; keep the place we enjoy-clean.

Otherwise, the control freaks will limit how, where, and when we can enjoy the wilderness- a much more insideous method of keeping the wild places wild- the ultimate goal of those special intrests. Eventually they'll control even those places Burchey seeks. Hopefully for him; he'll be to old to enjoy those places by then.

Bob , Bob

wow everything you said will actually do nothing, great job. Do you work in congress? I feel your pain and frustration but i dont think thats the answer, i admit i have had similar thoughts. All of your limitations will not get rid of the problem but lessen the trash by a 1% (meant to be a small number not actual) percent margin that will probably be barely noticable.

All you know everybody who gets that once a year overnight permit will all leave some poop for you.

I think education is key. Now what can a class actually do. Well i have been in situations where taking a class and has opened my ignorance/attitude toward a issue. If people did have to take a class, see some nasty pictures, maybe walk out back of ranger station where a setup wag bag area was so they could smell it and see the nasty mock area to simulate what is actually out there, it just might have more of an effect.

Confronting people prior to the issue has power. also by having a class it might convert one person or two in the group who might put pressure on their friends once out in wilderness to live up to the rules.

maybe the class should be longer than 30 min, like the hunters education class. After taking that class i had a different outlook on certain issue. maybe the class should be 8 hrs with a fee that gives people a license. that would weed out people who are once in a while backpackers who dont care about mother nature.

I wont burn you because i feel your pain but i disagree with you on all accounts.

Picking up errant WAG bags is a noble thing to do, but let's not forget that it wouldn't be necessary if they stuck with the preferred alternative in the Environmental Assessment to replace the old toilets with new ones.

WAG bags left on the trail was a predicted impact described in detail in the EA. They also predicted more cat holes, side trails for people looking for privacy, and concerns for water contamination. They implemented this voluntary wag bag solution fully informed of what was going to happen.

Thanks again JAGCHiker for going the extra mile to pick up after others and for trying to recruit help in that effort. We need more people like you out there.

Ken, you're probably right about what would happen if Inyo was sued over this. That would be the easiest way out for them - just cut way back on the usage. SEKI had a similar response over the HSHA lawsuit over commercial packers. Instead of working out a compromise after HSHA won in court, they just shut down the entire permit system for commercial packers. After Congressional pressure, they started taking permit applications at least. But SEKI would probably be happy just doing nothing, losing the entire season and blaming it all on HSHA. I could see Inyo reacting similarly just because it's human nature.

I thought of an idea or two back when this issue was discussed a dozen times earlier. I think I finally have a winner. Corks. Everyone will be issued a cork at the interagency center. It will be dutifully inserted at the portal and we can hire a couple of special rangers to check for compliance.

reminds me of a joke about a pig a cork and three monkeys. Or is it three pigs and a monkey? I never remember the details to jokes.

Hello... my name is Chris and I am a vacation backpacker (I live AWAY from the Sierra and have to actually request time off of work, aka vacation, in order to do any backpacking... I actually know people who -gasp- come from OUT OF STATE to be vacation backpackers in the Sierra....). My segway is currently being retrofitted with larger tires in order to be able to climb the stupid granite stairs below Trail Camp (I had to carry it last time, Sorry Mom... I forgot to tell you it was in my backpack... maybe thats what kept us from reaching the summit). In addition to my confessions... I'd like to say that I am that person who reaches Trail Camp and is so exhausted I can't see straight (yet... I still manage to find my Wag Bag and use it).

I spent all day thinking of scathing replies to the preceding posts on this thread, highly offended by the offhand stereotyping that I saw being tossed around by some people I respect. But decided to semi-behave myself...

What it really comes down to is this.... There are city folk, day trippers, overnighters, old people, young people, experienced outdoor folks and newbies who love and adore and cherish the wilderness and Whitney. Then again... there are city folk, day trippers, overnighters, old people, young people, experienced outdoor folks and newbies who abuse those same things with every step they take and breath they breath (really? Smoking and dropping cigarette butts at 14K? I can barely BREATH at 12K!)

What is the solution? Putting solar toilets back in? That might help in the immediate areas where the toilets are, I'll admit that much ... however... unless there are solar toilets every mile or so... people are still going to drop trow on the side of the trail and do their business.... the "exhausted elevation affected" people (oh wait... I fit in THAT category too).... who have a sudden urge aren't going to cross their legs and hobble their way uphill to another port-a-pottie...

I like the idea of hiker education. I am all about education. Requiring some sort of attendance at a sit-down lecture before you are allowed to receive your permit is a fabulous idea. I think that the permit group leader AND second should be (at the least) required to sit down and learn about not only wag bags, but fire rules (can I have a campfire at Trail Camp?), trail safety (the bear canister is sooooo heavy), and weather safety (its just a little thunder....).... maybe Inyo could partnership with A-16 and/or REI and when speakers who cover certain topics lecture at their stores they can sign off on a permit lecture form saying that so-and-so met the qualifications for the Wilderness Education Lecture and can get their permit (this would allow for those after hour pickups and for walk-ins who don't catch the lecture before permits are issued in the mornings).

A reduction of hiker traffic might be an answer… but I'm not sure it would have the effect that Mr. West is thinking. If the percentage of "good" people to "bag" people is 50/50…. Lowering the permit numbers will reduce the people allowed on the trail, but it isn't going to ensure the "bag" people are kept out versus the "good" people.

Is there a cure all solution to keep Whitney (or any other trail clean)? No… not really. There will always be rude, inconsiderate, uneducated, ungrateful ingrates wanting to hike Whitney and being awarded permits… those are the same people who "vacation" in places like Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Zion, Bryce, Yellowstone…. You name it you're going to find them there.

And just because I wouldn't be me if I didn't respond … Burchey…. Sodomite is Sodomite no matter where you find the definition. Read the Bible story about Sodom and Gomorrah… Also, You may be able to breeze up paved highways like Mt. Whitney without so much as batting an eyelash or loosing your breath, but most of the rest of us Mere Mortals DO suffer a little to get where we're going (or more then a little). We use front-country, yet challenging (to us at least) trails like Mt. Whitney's Main Trail to celebrate remission from illness, recovery from injury, betterment of ourselves… or just to celebrate life…..So maybe you should step down off your testosterone poisoned, I am GodLike, hear me roar my betterness then all of the little underlings pedestal…. And be a productive member of the conversations…..

And if all else fails… I think I know a wholesale cork supplier that Inyo can contract with….

Only the permit holder is named.



This is what is required in SEKI. Whether it does any good, I don't know. It DOES require a lot of man-hours, for sure.

Bob, my experience is that it is the pot-stirrers who achieve change and advancement. A healthy debate about assumptions is always good, though not always welcome.

I can't fathom, for example, the justification for all the permits on Whitney, when for a nearly identical mountain, Langley, it is far, far more restricted. In fact, I think Langley is about right.
Whitney is ridiculous. But the difference is not understandable from a resource perspective.

It is strictly a political issue.

Chris.

Darlin.

Deep breath.

I'm not sure why you're taking such an offense to some of the things you've mentioned here. You say you use your wagbag properly. We can assume, with all this passion you've got, that you don't leave other forms of trash behind. You aren't part of the problem. Why so angry?

It's probably apparent from my picture that I'm a man - I'd assume that's where you're getting the testosterone poisoned thing from. I apologize for my unhealthy balance of male hormone - it's something I've been dealing with since childhood. I'm not sure how it plays into this discussion but I'm open to new theories.

As far as the sodomites thing goes, I don't retract my comparison to those masses of people that do go up the mountain, and decide to leave trash/feces filled bags where ever they please. They lack compassion for their surroundings and fellow hikers/climbers, and are distasteful human beings. I know the story of Sodom and Gomorrah - the people wanted to have their way with the Angels staying in Lot's house, and he said take my daughters instead, and they said no, so he gave them a couple wag bags which they promptly used and stuffed under a rock near Mirror lake.

Whether you enjoy facts or not, the main trail for Mt Whitney is relatively easy. It's well marked, not that steep, and is very popular so it would probably be tough to find yourself in trouble and without human contact for very long. Because of that ( and combined with the highest-mountain-thing ) there is a very large volume of people that make their way up it every season. If the trail was harder, less people would go. I'm not sure how you could argue otherwise - just look at the other routes on the mountain that are more difficult and receive less traffic. Less traffic = theoretically less poop/trash. Again, no me importa - cover the whole main trail in power bar wrappers and crap. Who am I to say that the users of that path can't jack it all up? I promise to not call the litterbugs mean names any more as well.

Bob, sorry if you felt insulted. I appreciate your contributions to discussions on this forum! On the other hand, I get pretty riled up when anyone brings up cutting back access to the wilderness as a first resort to some problem. There were so many people in the Half Dome thread on this forum and a Yosemite forum, willing to let YNP cut the numbers going to Half Dome yet again, without even trying, in fact, some even condemning the idea of trying other options.

It is not you -- it's just the idea of cutting back the numbers being the preferred choice. I hear it so many times from so many people. Nearly always it is from those who spend more time than most in the mountains, those with more technical climbing experience, those who have been hiking longer than others. And the attitude is nearly always an arrogant condemnation of the Vacation Hikers, or Disneyland Tourists; Flip Flop hikers; Commoners. There's an attitude in there that I call ugly.

And what bothers me more, is that this same attitude can be found in the National Park and National Forest people who set the policies. It really fires me up, because myself being a commoner, I can't get access to the wilderness due to tight quotas, yet when I have gotten the last available permit, hiked into some backcountry spot, I never see a soul! There is something wrong with that picture.

Just one thing Bob: re-reading your five suggestions for the Whitney trail, I just cannot see how you can then write "You falsely assume that I am one of those who want to keep the commoners out" Maybe you can explain who you would keep out. I am puzzled.

Finally, for solutions to the WAG bags left behind... Here are two suggestions I like:
1. Charge more per hikers in the Whitney Zone. Use the money to add foot rangers to keep better eye on things.
2. Put an identifying mark on each and every wag bag, so those left behind could be tracked to the hikers leaving them.

Also rebuild the several toilets that were taken out.

I like the education idea, too. Maybe a ten-minute course, and a 5-minute test to make sure people actually learned what was said. Miss too many on the test, take the course again!

There are quite a few ideas that should be tried BEFORE cutting the numbers.

Actually, Steve, that is EXACTLY what you should see in a wilderness experience. You posted about this before, and I responded, and the whole concept apparently sailed over your head.

Wilderness is NOT the same as "backcountry". It has specific characteristics:

"A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain."

Within wilderness areas, the Wilderness Act strives to restrain human influences so that ecosystems (the Wilderness Act, however, makes no specific mention of ecosystems) can change over time in their own way, free, as much as possible, from human manipulation. In these areas, as the Wilderness Act puts it, "the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man"—untrammeled meaning the forces of nature operate unrestrained and unaltered.

The specific wording of the Act says:

DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS


(c) A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.
=======================

I remain dumbfounded at how people can just IGNORE THE LAW. I don't see how it could be clearer:

"retaining its primeval character and influence"
"without permanent improvements or human habitation"
"imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable"
"outstanding opportunities for solitude"

How do permanent toilets fit into that?
How do 160 people a day fit into that?

Steve, you describe a wilderness experience, as it was meant to be experienced, AND YOU COMPLAIN.

What's up with that?????

Thee. Best. Quote. Ever!

> ...AND YOU COMPLAIN.
My complaint is that I almost did not even GET THE CHANCE to have that wilderness experience.

> What's up with that?

I see almost nothing in the definition saying I should not encounter others like myself, hiking in, carrying everything that I need in and out, leaving no trace, taking nothing but pictures and grand memories.

My (and others') presence does not bring permanent improvements or habitation, and does not change the area's natural condition. In fact, the trails are the biggest imprint of man's work.

As for "outstanding opportunities for solitude": How far from others do you need to be for solitude? I can find solitude from the masses at Trail Camp -- it just takes maybe ten minutes.

But it is pretty obvious from the behavior of most campers, that this solitude issue is over-emphasized practically every time restrictions are tightened. Most campers will plop down right next to others, rather than spending the ten minutes to walk 200 yards away to find their solitude.

I see nothing in the Wilderness Act requiring the wilderness gatekeepers to emphasize solitude to the degree they use it. These wilderness areas encompass millions of acres, with millions of "opportunities for solitude". Yet the gatekeepers use that phrase to prevent so many from having ANY wilderness experience whatsoever, resulting in zero opportunity for solitude.

Ken - would you clarify this statement? I've day-hiked Langley several times, and never needed a permit. It's a longish hike, but not nearly as taxing as Whitney.

I've not needed to look into permits for overnight stays in that area - is that what you're referring to in terms of restrictions?

Wilderness means a certain degree of solitude.

Backcountry means not being able to see the front country.

Whitney is neither.

But, that being said, and at the risk of upsetting my boss' husband: Bob, when I go north in a few weeks, I'll be a touron climbing in a new range. I suppose I should stay home?

More seriously, anyone who treats my backyard responsibly is welcome here. Educate yourselves, practice leave no trace ethics, hike and climb with good judgement and safety. If you insist on acting like asses, I, for one, have no problem calling you on it. To your face. Confrontationally.

In the meantime, while y'all fight over quotas/poopbags/camping spaces/definitions/watevah, I'll be out playing in the grandest backyard for which any girl could ever wish...

Ken, the specially designated Whitney Zone is not typical "wilderness" as found in the hundreds of thousands of acres elsewhere in the high Sierra. For example, the permanent man made habitable stone masonry structure on the summit would have to be removed in order to comply. The Whitney Zone needs to be managed as a unique area under special regulations due to it's immense popularly.

The need for toilets has been recognized since the 1960's as a critical component of a responsible waste management program for this special use area. It's only recently that a different approach has been tried and the results are obvious. Hence this thread and all the discussion about how wag bags are not an effective stand-alone solution for 17,000 people climbing this trail every year.

That's not to say wag bags wouldn't be part of any comprehensive waste management program for an area like this. They are indeed good to have been toilets (as SoCalGirl described), for the summit section above trail camp, and in the winter. Bring all available tools to bear on this problem including solar toilets, wag bags, education, and more oversight.

Even if the permit numbers are scaled back, this will always be a heavily impacted area as people will come in from other trailheads or hike through illegally at night. People will not go away and neither will their waste. It needs to be managed.

Well said, Laura. You are indeed lucky to live so close to this, but more importantly you get up and take advantage of it. I've noticed that most people do not take good advantage of the outdoor opportunities surrounding them. Keep going and keep posting your stories! We're expecting a book some day.

Yee Haa! Let us know how your trip goes, but don't tell us where on this forum, 'lest we all rush there and turn it into another Whitney Experience.

By the way, I seldom share what I post here with my wife; she would just tell me to STHU (like some folks here might wish...ha ha).