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Bears
#24598 06/02/12 07:01 AM
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Hello everyone, about 5 years ago, while at house keeping tents at Yosemite, we had a small bear come in and grab a backpack (which had a small sandwich). It was bit scary in the middle of the night. Obviously, I know it was our mistake.

I have seen a video of someone having an encounter with a large bear at Whitney portal camp grounds at night.

It seems keeping food in bear containers is best way to keep the bears at bay. Are there any other ways to keep them away? May be keeping the lantern on or keeping a fire on, etc? What are best ways to keep them away without stressing them out.

Also, how common are bear encounters at Whitney Portal?

Thanks!

Re: Bears
pratic patel #24599 06/02/12 07:15 AM
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I've been to WP many times and have seen one bear, paws up on a Ford Explorer on WP Rd...the owner had left some food in it.

I regularly lay my sleeping bag out in the hiker-in without a tent, fire, lantern or sign stating I'm the equivalent of a bear happy meal.

Just make sure there are no food items in your tent or vehicle. Put all that stuff in the bear lockers provided by the forest service.

Re: Bears
pratic patel #24603 06/02/12 01:52 PM
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Pratic, they will be roaming all around the campground in the dark when everyone is asleep. You cannot keep them away. They stealthily check for smells of food -- bears' noses are about a thousand times more sensitive than humans.

If you are camping overnight at the portal, use the bear lockers, and make SURE they are properly latched. They only want your food, they never bother humans, (...unless they are being challenged once they have possession of some food. I know, I did that once.)

If you are getting up early to day hike, do not put food in your day pack and leave it for a minute on the picnic table. When it is dark, the Whitney Portal bears will sneak up, grab the pack and run.

The bear problem is probably worse at Whitney Portal than in Yosemite due to the pre-dawn day hikers with food in their day packs.

Here's the thread with the bear video from last year. Bears at Whitney Portal It is pretty crazy that the woman recorded the bear for 3:15 before she figured out how to scare it away.

Re: Bears
pratic patel #24605 06/02/12 02:31 PM
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Generally, it's not random bears wandering in and out of the Portal. It's the same bears, and the rangers tend to know them, according to the folks at the station in Lone Pine. So these bears get a lot of practice at what to do and what not to do, and where to find food. Even leaving things like empty water bottles in your car is considered a no no, because the bears have learned that those bottles usually mean food is nearby, and will try to get in your car. They weren't ticketing for that last year, but we saw three or four cars with yellow info flyers about it last year in the parking lot.


One day I'd like to hike the entire John Muir Trail and not leave a single footprint. -Randy Morgenson
Re: Bears
GandC #24616 06/02/12 10:26 PM
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I wonder if some sort of concensus could be arrived at indicating the "average" number of times bears might be seen at the portal per a given number of visits? Or, to express it another way, what are the odds of a bear sighting in any one visit (where, of course, the length and times of the visit would have to be known).

I wonder about this because I don't know from reading many posts over the last few years both here and on the portal board if any conclusions can be drawn. Some posters project that they've had multiple bear sightings whereas others might say, for example, that they've only seen one bear over multiple visits.

Myself? On my one day hike of Whitney (2004), I did some acclimitization at Mammoth Lakes prior to arriving at Lone Pine and Whitney Portal. On the morning I left Mammoth Lakes, a shadowy figure was seen in the darkness leaving the area around a dumpster in the motel parking lot -- presumably a bear, althouth I couldn't be 100 sure.

But -- just a minute or two later, driving down the main drag, a huge black bear crossed the road directly in front of me (giving new meaning to the term "lumbering").

There's more! On the day of my Whitney day hike (two days later), I left my vehicle in the parking lot at the portal to walk to the trailhead and began my hike at 4:00 AM. Within the first mile of the trai I ran into some fellow hikers and we started talking. They told me they had seen me in the parking lot and asked, "Didn't you see that bear walk right by you?"

(I hadn't!)

More interesting to me are mountain lions. They say that if you ever are so lucky to actually see one in the wild that, by that time, at least 50 mountain lions have seen you!

Re: Bears
Whitney Fan #24663 06/04/12 03:01 PM
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I had a bear next to my tent in the packers camp area on evening. It woke me up when it began messing with the plastic bag of water that I had left out. The bear was harmless but it did make me take seriously the bear intelligence. It clearly understood that many bags have food. The next time there, I left my water in the car.

Re: Bears
CaliHawk #24691 06/05/12 05:34 AM
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Interesting stuff here. I guess the most imp thing is the food stuff to be stored in food storage lockers. I see many people start from Whitney Portal early morning in the dark. In one of the posts, I read the back pack was taken by a bear. I guess his/her hike was cancelled by a bear! I got bear bell, lol, I hope I will be lucky enough. Seems like there is no bear proof way.

Re: Bears
pratic patel #24694 06/05/12 07:18 AM
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Ah yes, bear bells. A kind of "come and get it" for bears.

See, if you can take it back to REI, they are useless.

Re: Bears
wbtravis #24695 06/05/12 07:42 AM
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AKA, "Dinner bell".

Re: Bears
wbtravis #24699 06/05/12 08:10 AM
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wbtravis - What's your take on bear pepper spray? I ask because I will thru-hiking the southbound JMT for the first time later this summer.

CaT


If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
Re: Bears
CaT #24700 06/05/12 08:21 AM
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CaT - here is some info on using pepperspray on bears from the North American Bear Center in Ely, Minnesota

http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/pepper-spray.html

Dr. Lynn Rogers has been studying our black bears for 40 years.


The Mountains are calling and I must go - John Muir
Re: Bears
Glenn #24701 06/05/12 08:34 AM
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LOL. That is funny! Thanks, I will return it today

Re: Bears
CaT #24702 06/05/12 09:07 AM
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I have always wondered why people at the Portal don't use bear spray on the bears there. My experience in Colorado Springs with numerous bears around the houses in our area is that bear spray works very well. We had a bear up our apple tree some 15 feet from where I was when I sprayed it. It quickly dropped down out of the tree and ran away. Never saw another bear up the apple tree after that. Only problem was the spray drifted back and nailed me too.

Another time a couple of years later a bear was in our driveway and up an oak tree eating acorns and breaking branches off the tree. One close range spray, maybe 10 feet away, got the bear out of the tree and it ran off into the woods. Like the bear, I learned and avoided the spray drifting back to me this time.

Finally a neighbor used spray on a bear sampling his hummingbird feeder (actually it is best to take them down at night) and the bear ran off and apparently did not bother the feeder again although it or another bear did enjoy sitting in their pond which is well away from the feeder location.

It may just be that people at the Portal just enjoy having the bears around and everyone co exists!

Re: Bears
CMC2 #24705 06/05/12 10:42 AM
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In Alaska they can positively ID Grizzly scat on the trail because it has those little bells buried in it.

These pepper canisters designed for Grizzlies are very large and heavy like a small fire extinguisher. I bought one and carried it day hiking in Yellowstone/Tetons with small kids. We saw a few Grizzlies at safe distance, exciting and no problems. For black bears I carry a tiny canister of pepper for self defense that would probably work on a bear at close range. The numbers show a much great risk from a human nut job than a bear. I've encountered lots of bears in the Sierra and never felt a need to spray them. The Rangers at Yosemite have been hazing the bears there with fireworks and other means for years. Together with more bear boxes, the incidents have dropped dramatically.

The only time I felt really worried about a black bear was when we hiked by a little cub next to the trail at Hetch Hetchy and we didn't see Mama bear around. My little kids wanted to pet it but I got them out of there pronto. Except for protecting baby cubs, all they want is your food. Do not let them get it or your trash. Period. If they have outsmarted you out of your food, just remember, it is now THEIR food and you are the thief. That's how people get hurt.

The foolproof solution: hike with a fool you can outrun. :o

Re: Bears
pratic patel #24706 06/05/12 11:21 AM
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I am heading up on Friday and was wondering the same thing.

While at the Portal, everything with a scent, will be in a locker. Are they big enough to fit my entire pack? I ask this because it may have some campfire aroma on it from previous trips.

Then on the trail, we are going to stay at Outpost Camp and use that as our base camp. I will have my canister with me. This also will have anything with a scent in it, even my deodorant and soap. What is the preferred placement of this? I always placed it 100 yards away from camp. Now I have read that I want to do this not only down wind, but up hill and diagonally away from camp? Also preferably in the shade not near a cliff. I have generally just left it out in the open near an easily recognizable landmark from afar. What do you guys do?

Any other tips on this?




Re: Bears
pretendingtowork #24707 06/05/12 11:29 AM
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When I park my car at the Portal, I always wet some rags with Lysol and place them on my tires. I also use this method at my house at Tahoe. Pour a circle of Lysol around the house. Bears hate the scent, hurts their sensitve smelling.

Re: Bears
pretendingtowork #24709 06/05/12 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: pretendingtowork
While at the Portal, everything with a scent, will be in a locker. Are they big enough to fit my entire pack? I ask this because it may have some campfire aroma on it from previous trips.

Then on the trail, we are going to stay at Outpost Camp and use that as our base camp. I will have my canister with me. This also will have anything with a scent in it, even my deodorant and soap. What is the preferred placement of this? I always placed it 100 yards away from camp. Now I have read that I want to do this not only down wind, but up hill and diagonally away from camp? Also preferably in the shade not near a cliff. I have generally just left it out in the open near an easily recognizable landmark from afar. What do you guys do?

Any other tips on this?

Leave the pack open and unzipped. The bear will inspect it, find it empty, and leave. But it might fit in the locker -- they are big, but lots of people put lots of stuff in them. I've even seen hiking boots in one. crazy

You do not need to go to great trouble placing your canister far away. I go about 10 feet. First, I don't think any bears have been seen at Outpost, but also, the bear might try to roll the canister, but if they have tried one before, they will most likely leave it alone (bears are smart). As I wrote above, bears (in California) will not bother people -- it is only the food they want.

I am curious: I wonder if ANY hiker on the JMT or in the Sierra anywhere has actually been successful using pepper spray on a bear. I think that is pretty unlikely.

And last, SierraNevada wrote:
> In Alaska they can positively ID Grizzly scat on the trail because it has those little (bear) bells buried in it.
Yes, and it smells like pepper spray, too. grin

Re: Bears
Steve C #24715 06/05/12 01:03 PM
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Quote:
And last, SierraNevada wrote:

> In Alaska they can positively ID Grizzly scat on the trail because it has those little (bear) bells buried in it. <

Yes, and it smells like pepper spray, too.

As Laura expressed so eloquently in a unrelated topic:

Quote:


OMG, I'm crying...

Last time I camped at Outpost Camp, I put my bear canister up against a large tree just on the other side of the trail that passes through there and buried it with medium size rocks. Not sure if that's necessary, but that's what we did. Another bear-repellant trick that others have used for car protection at the Portal is to put a series of spaced-out mothballs (this is not mothballs on drugs) along the perimeter of the top edge of your vehicle. It seems that mothballs also have an unpleasant smell to bears (and us).

CaT


If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
Re: Bears
CaT #24739 06/05/12 06:47 PM
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CaT,

I ain't ever used the stuff. I've only run into 4 bears in the wilderness in 16 years...and 3 of those in Ice House Canyon.

Hmmm...does Ice House Canyon count as wilderness?

Last edited by wbtravis; 06/05/12 06:48 PM.
Re: Bears
wbtravis #24741 06/05/12 07:05 PM
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I've got a full canister of Counter Assault I've had for about seven years. I finally quit carrying it about 4 years ago since ninety percent of my hiking is done in either Georgia or California, and the bears in neither state concern me any longer. I know it's still good though - I tested it once last year on the neighbors' mutt that they allow to run wild at times. He hasn't wandered into my garage to bark at me since . . .


And for what it's worth, this was in July of last year at the Portal - about 50 feet from the picnic benches outside the store entrance:



I've also had a (very) close encounter in a condo garage in Mammoth Lakes, just outside the dumpster chute.

Last edited by Bulldog34; 06/05/12 07:27 PM. Reason: Added photo
Re: Bears
wbtravis #24754 06/05/12 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbtravis
CaT,

I ain't ever used the stuff. I've only run into 4 bears in the wilderness in 16 years...and 3 of those in Ice House Canyon.

Hmmm...does Ice House Canyon count as wilderness?


Technically, I guess. Honestly, heck no.

I saw one bear in Icehouse Canyon, and it was at the trail head at about 3 in the afternoon. I was warned of its presence by a couple carrying their young child at a half run UP the trail, in an attempt to escape the bear. They did not appreciate my laughter, IIRC.


One day I'd like to hike the entire John Muir Trail and not leave a single footprint. -Randy Morgenson
Re: Bears
Bulldog34 #24884 06/10/12 01:57 PM
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Quote:
I am curious: I wonder if ANY hiker on the JMT or in the Sierra anywhere has actually been successful using pepper spray on a bear. I think that is pretty unlikely.


Steve, define what you mean by success?

Re: Bears
Ken #24885 06/10/12 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
Quote:
I am curious: I wonder if ANY hiker on the JMT or in the Sierra anywhere has actually been successful using pepper spray on a bear. I think that is pretty unlikely.


Steve, define what you mean by success?


I would call it successful if they were actually able to hit the bear with the stuff, enough to cause it to change course or whatever it was doing that the human wanted it to stop.

I am thinking it would be pretty difficult to even get close enough to a Sierra bear in order to spray it.

Re: Bears
Steve C #24895 06/10/12 04:38 PM
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sort of like this?

Carrying a small can of pepper spray is a good way to feel self confident around black bears. It works as well on bears as it does on dogs. They don't go away mad, they just go away. This 4-year-old girl made this bear run away by spraying it in the eyes. The next day, the girl saw the same bear and it ran up a tree.




Re: Bears
Ken #24896 06/10/12 04:40 PM
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"A big revelation to me was how reluctant black bear mothers are to defend their cubs against people, even when the family is cornered in a den and I'm trying to stick the mother with a needle to tranquilize her. Defense of cubs is more a grizzly bear trait. There is no record of anyone being killed by a mother black bear defending her cubs, and attacks are very rare. We routinely capture black bear cubs in the presence of mothers and have never been attacked. "

http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/b...lack-bears.html


Re: Bears
Ken #24900 06/10/12 06:43 PM
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Thanks for the link and info Ken.

CaT


If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
Re: Bears
Ken #24902 06/10/12 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
sort of like this?

Well, yes. But I want to know about Sierra bears, not those tame types up in Ely, MN. My point is that I think it is just extra weight for a hiker or backpacker to carry.

Re: Bears
Steve C #24903 06/10/12 08:39 PM
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Also bear/pepper spray is illegal in Yosemite Park. I overheard an REI employee advise a customer of that fact the other day, and just confirmed it: www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm

The rules may be different in Sequoia/Kings Canyon NP. A google search suggests that some pepper sprays may be legal, depending on how they are forumulated, and assuming that the owner/user is 18 years or older.

Re: Bears
pratic patel #24904 06/10/12 08:54 PM
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I've seen a guy literally chase a bear at the Portal, chase. This was in broad daylight and not during the wee hours of the night.

I've carried a large can of bear mace before, but only had to use it once (in Yosemite no less, sorry rangers, didn't know), and against an angry buck, not a bear.

When I first went up Whitney, I asked a ranger at the Visitor's Center whether the mace was necessary. He said he doubts it, but also said that I should carry it if it'll give me peace of mind. I think that's good advice. I rarely carry it anymore, but if it'll let you sleep at night, bring it along. I worry more about the other critters out there like mad deers and mountain lions.

Re: Bears
Akichow #24907 06/10/12 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: Akichow
Also bear/pepper spray is illegal in Yosemite Park. I overheard an REI employee advise a customer of that fact the other day, and just confirmed it: www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm

The rules may be different in Sequoia/Kings Canyon NP. A google search suggests that some pepper sprays may be legal, depending on how they are forumulated, and assuming that the owner/user is 18 years or older.

Thanks for the surprise info, I never knew that about pepper spray in Yosemite. You can carry a gun but not pepper spray. Makes perfect nonsense to me.

Re: Bears
Ken #24908 06/10/12 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
"A big revelation to me was how reluctant black bear mothers are to defend their cubs against people, even when the family is cornered in a den and I'm trying to stick the mother with a needle to tranquilize her. Defense of cubs is more a grizzly bear trait. There is no record of anyone being killed by a mother black bear defending her cubs, and attacks are very rare. We routinely capture black bear cubs in the presence of mothers and have never been attacked. "

http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/b...lack-bears.html


I'm not buying this one about Momma bear not defending her cubs. This bear support organization's anecdotal experience seems to be different than what the average hiker might encounter - accidentally finding yourself on a trail between a Momma Bear and her cubs. It's basic animal instinct and I would be very concerned in that situation. A google search will find recent examples of Momma bear attacking a human who came between her and her cubs. Black bear attacks are rare, but they shouldn't give out reassuring advice that defies common sense.

Re: Bears
SierraNevada #24909 06/10/12 11:18 PM
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I have reservations about those tame bear stories, too. Talking with a ranger at McClure Meadow several years ago, he had a number of stories of people being pretty badly hurt by bears (at various locations on the JMT) One instance was where a hiker was chasing a cub away from food, and was attacked by the mother bear.

Re: Bears
SierraNevada #24910 06/11/12 05:04 AM
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Quote:
This bear support organization's anecdotal experience seems to be different than what the average hiker might encounter

Actually it's a single individual's first-hand 40-year-experience, not the organization's, and being first-hand, probably not anecdotal.

That being said, he didn't say attacks were non-existent, just rare (more so than most other dangers we face), and that black bears are not as they are perceived to be by the general uninitiated public. Does "animal instinct" necessarily apply in the same way and to the same extreme for each species? I doubt it. That's what makes them different. I would imagine we could learn a lot from this person about how to behave around bears if/when we encounter them in the wild.

CaT


If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
Re: Bears
CaT #24911 06/11/12 08:01 AM
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Another thing to remember about rare occurrences, is that they are the ones that get reported. No one goes running to the rangers or press with stories of not being attacked, so it could be the case in any number of encounters for every reported attack.

The fact that it happens at all, however, would seem to argue against allowing a 4-year old to get anywhere near a cub.


Wherever you go, there you are.
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Re: Bears
Steve C #24918 06/11/12 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
I have reservations about those tame bear stories, too. Talking with a ranger at McClure Meadow several years ago, he had a number of stories of people being pretty badly hurt by bears (at various locations on the JMT) One instance was where a hiker was chasing a cub away from food, and was attacked by the mother bear.


Ah, but do remember that these are the same ones that will tell you that you need to filter the water to save your life. smile

Do remember that the individual being discussed is the retired former chief bear biologist for the US Forest Service, not just some rube feeding circus bears, or a nut like Tim Treadwell. He is a life-long bear researcher, with a string of academic publications that is truly impressive:

-Lynn Rogers, Ph.D., has spent over 42 years learning about wildlife and sharing his information with the public......
-he has radio-tracked over 100 bears in the vast forests of northeastern Minnesota, studying some for as long as 22 years....
-By 1975, Rogers' bear study was ranked one of the four top studies of large mammals in the world, along with studies by Jane Goodall, Brian Bertram, and Ian Hamilton. Professor E. O. Wilson of Harvard University wrote, "A new level of resolution has been attained, in which free-ranging individuals are tracked from birth through socialization, parturition, and death, and their idiosyncrasies, personal alliances, and ecological relationships recorded in clinical detail."
-The study became even more detailed in the next two decades. Rogers formed trusting relationships with wild black bears, including mothers with cubs, and spent 24-hour periods walking and resting with these intelligent animals, detailing their activities, diet, ecology, social organization, vocalizations, and more, providing much of the scientific information on black bear behavior available today
-Rogers has written over a hundred scientific articles on black bear behavior and ecology and has served as senior author on more peer-reviewed scientific articles on bears than anyone in the world.
-Regarded by many as the Jane Goodall of black bears, Rogers has a Ph.D. in Ecology and Behavioral Biology from the University of Minnesota. Rewards include the Quality Research Award from the U. S. Forest Service and the Anna M. Jackson Award from the American Society of Mammalogists


But then, we can simply ignore those who have devoted their lives to the research of bears and what they have observed, researched, and written about, because our "common sense" tells us the way things are. Don't drive east of Badwater, you might drive off the earth.

"Eppur si muove" -Galileo

I particularly find it amusing to find rejection of science regarding bears, and embracing of science on outhouses. I guess whatever works, eh?





Re: Bears
Ken #24920 06/11/12 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ken
But then, we can simply ignore those who have devoted their lives to the research of bears and what they have observed, researched, and written about, because our "common sense" tells us the way things are. Don't drive east of Badwater, you might drive off the earth.

"Eppur si muove" -Galileo

I particularly find it amusing to find rejection of science regarding bears, and embracing of science on outhouses. I guess whatever works, eh?

Not rejecting science at all, Ken. All I am saying is that, while this researcher is quite comfortable around bears, I believe he is also far more knowledgeable in how to posture himself around bears with his behavior and body language. That expert knowledge allows him to approach bears and to work with them, without putting himself in much danger.

But for a common hiker like me, and most other hikers, I would think bears might read our body language and behavior differently, so approaching a bear might be way more dangerous for us. Sierra bears are in a quest for survival, with food being their highest priority. Since hikers and campers are often carrying a significant amount of that scarce commodity, the bears are attracted to hikers, and hikers and others are frequently chasing the bears away. This creates an adversarial situation, and bears have learned to be wary of humans. When these bears and humans come into contact, sometimes there is trouble.

There is no way this information doubts or discredits the research.

Edit: This amazing and wonderful gorilla encounter could have been far different if the humans had grabbed sticks and rocks and started yelling.
  Gorilla encounter on wimp.com
  Also on http://www.telegraph.co.uk

Re: Bears
Steve C #24928 06/11/12 10:47 AM
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I'm confused, Steve.

You don't reject the science.

but the assertion by the scientist, that there has never been a documented attack of a mother black bear in defense of cubs is something you don't accept.....is not a rejection?

in spite of this lack of rejection (?), and feeling that hikers in the Sierra are at greater risk, you feel that hikers should NOT carry bear spray, which has repeatedly been documented to work to repel bears.....huh?

Re: Bears
Ken #24929 06/11/12 10:48 AM
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Re: Bears
Ken #24931 06/11/12 11:00 AM
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> but the assertion by the scientist, that there has never been a documented attack of a mother black bear in defense of cubs is something you don't accept.....is not a rejection?

All I know is what the ranger told me at McClure Meadow (in 2008, I believe). He had seen a few people pretty badly hurt by bear attacks, and the one I recall was of the cub. Maybe George could help me on this one. ...edit: thinking about it, a ranger's verbal tale is not documentation, so I guess the researcher is technically correct.

I am thinking there is some disconnect between this researchers statements and those of the Sierra ranger. Is the researcher talking about all black bears, or is there some species difference between his research subjects and the Sierra version? ...I just don't know.

> in spite of this lack of rejection (?), and feeling that hikers in the Sierra are at greater risk, you feel that hikers should NOT carry bear spray, which has repeatedly been documented to work to repel bears.....huh?

The correct way to repel bears is to make sure all food is properly secured. If the food is safely stored in a canister, the bears will not bother it. And the bears are not going to attack the people. Carry and use a canister, not bear spray.

Re: Bears
Ken #24933 06/11/12 12:25 PM
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I'm curious about the model of Ursack that was being used in the video. The only one recommended as "bear-proof" by the manufacturer is the Ursack White. All the other models will only keep small critters from getting into the food. Even the Ursack White must be used properly, using the manufacturer's instructions.

The researcher you reference is only one of many bear researchers; his data might or might not correspond with the data gathered by researchers in other parts of North America. As I recall from my science classes, it is important not to argue from the particular to the general, but from the general to the particular. In other words, good research must cover all possible data, from multiple sources, before making any kind of generalization across the board on any topic.

Better safe than sorry; follow the rules of behavior in bear country or don't be surprised if Ursa gets your food...and more.





Last edited by Bob West; 06/11/12 12:26 PM.
Re: Bears
Steve C #24934 06/11/12 12:27 PM
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Bear face-palm...






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Re: Bears
MooseTracks #24937 06/11/12 12:45 PM
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Really, really scary................



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Re: Bears
quillansculpture #24942 06/11/12 01:24 PM
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How cute, little bear cubs playing. I'll follow my instinct and stay away, thanks. You don't have to be afraid of bears to use common sense. If someone wants to do a science experiment and get between these cute little cubs and Momma, let us know how it goes.

This one happened last July 2011. The lady didn't die, so the statistics don't need to be updated.

Haas had initially tried to sprint away from the angry mother bear after accidentally coming between the animal and her two cubs while jogging the trail. But she soon realized that was the wrong tactic. "I looked behind me, and she was right behind me,'' Haas said. "I realized running from wild animals is the worst thing you can do.''

The bear chased her down from behind, slashing her chest and left arm with its claws when Haas turned around. No one on the trail heard her screams, so it was up to Haas to extricate herself from the situation.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43969162/n...e/#.T9ZSSMWwXpw

Re: Bears
Ken #24951 06/11/12 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ken

but the assertion by the scientist, that there has never been a documented attack of a mother black bear in defense of cubs is something you don't accept.....is not a rejection?


That was not the gentleman's assertion. The assertion was that there has never been a documented death, and that attacks are rare, meaning that attacks occur. Just none severe enough to cause death.

Which is a far less radical and completely plausible statement.


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Re: Bears
SierraNevada #24955 06/11/12 04:37 PM
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Okay.... SierraNevada, if you thought THAT was cute....

I guess the bear thing is just a bit silly (to me). I've had 'em walk within feet of me, but most just run away. Mostly just a nuisance, and it's usually irresponsible hikers and fishermen that are the problem at the Portal (leaving dead fish and guts in open containers or just on the shores, not closing the bear boxes, leaving food in the vehicles and leaving packs out in the open.)

Black Bear attacks and deaths??? Again, kind of a reach. If you want to do a study, compare the amount of people killed on the 395 in auto accidents to Black Bear attacks in the entire North American region. Much more dangerous of a proposition just to get to Lone Pine than bears actually standing ground and attacking. Just my opinion, but I've seen what an accident can do on the 395...... just haven't seen anyone hurt by a bear.





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Re: Bears
saltydog #24956 06/11/12 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: saltydog
The fact that it happens at all, however, would seem to argue against allowing a 4-year old to get anywhere near a cub.


Not sure who would let a 4-year old near pepper spray, let alone a bear cub.

Thinking about it, it's probably a good thing that bear spray is illegal in Yosemite, at least in the valley. I have visions of panicked campers accidentally pepper-spraying neighboring campsites on a regular basis.

Re: Bears
quillansculpture #24963 06/11/12 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: quillansculpture
I guess the bear thing is just a bit silly (to me). I've had 'em walk within feet of me, but most just run away. Mostly just a nuisance...

My personal experience is similar to your personal experience, Black bears have been mostly a nuisance to me. But is it really good advice to insist that people should feel comfortable getting between Momma bears and her cubs? I'm just not buying that advice.

Originally Posted By: quillansculpture
Black Bear attacks and deaths??? Again, kind of a reach. If you want to do a study, compare the amount of people killed on the 395 in auto accidents to Black Bear attacks in the entire North American region. Much more dangerous of a proposition just to get to Lone Pine than bears actually standing ground and attacking. Just my opinion, but I've seen what an accident can do on the 395...... just haven't seen anyone hurt by a bear.

So let's give out bad advice about driving, shall we? Hey everybody, there's an expert in England who says it's okay to drive on the left side of the road because most accidents happen when people drive on the right side of the road. I've never personally seen anyone killed by driving on the left side of the road.

Re: Bears
SierraNevada #24966 06/11/12 07:32 PM
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Here's a test. This is my family on the trail near Rancheria Falls (Sierra 11 yrs old, Nevada 9 yrs old). Notice the cub near the trail. I didn't, I walked right past it while I was fiddling with my camera and my kids pointed it out.

What's a parent to do?
1. Have a seat and read Goldilocks to the cute little cub, maybe sing a few rounds of Cumbaya. If Momma Bear comes by, just smile and reassure her in bear speak that we are friendly humans meaning no harm to her offspring.

2. Look around to see which way is the best way to get out of the situation without coming between Momma bear and the cubs. Be willing to go back down the trail if necessary.


Re: Bears
Bob West #24969 06/11/12 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bob West

The researcher you reference is only one of many bear researchers; his data might or might not correspond with the data gathered by researchers in other parts of North America. As I recall from my science classes, it is important not to argue from the particular to the general, but from the general to the particular. In other words, good research must cover all possible data, from multiple sources, before making any kind of generalization across the board on any topic.



Bob, I'd take some issue with your approach to evaluating research.

Mainly, I'd say that if one disputes research, one disputes it with research that contradicts it, not with a statement that the research does not encompass all research done by everybody, everywhere, at all times, on every related subject, and there MIGHT be something that contradicts the disputed research.

For example, in Steve's example, he give the example of a bear that has taken a camper's food, who happens to be a cub.

How many times have we all read, that once a bear has captured food, it is THEIRS, and an attempt to get it back is foolhardy. Perhaps that was the operative issue, not the cub issue.

Hey, but it's great to stick to the party line. filter that water! smile

Re: Bears
saltydog #24972 06/11/12 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: saltydog
Originally Posted By: Ken

but the assertion by the scientist, that there has never been a documented attack of a mother black bear in defense of cubs is something you don't accept.....is not a rejection?


That was not the gentleman's assertion. The assertion was that there has never been a documented death, and that attacks are rare, meaning that attacks occur. Just none severe enough to cause death.

Which is a far less radical and completely plausible statement.


You are right, although he said VERY rare.

Re: Bears
Ken #24973 06/11/12 08:23 PM
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In the case of the skier, the frustrating thing is the exaggerated reporting. She "survived" her attack. A print version describes her as "virtually unharmed", the pictures show her with band-aids.

The concern I have is that the sighting of a cub becomes the reason for an armed person to shoot a mother bear. "just in case", like the Alaskan case with the Grizzly last year.

It is the exaggerated fear of all that is in wilderness that drives many to feel that these places need to be tamed.

Re: Bears
Ken #24974 06/11/12 09:48 PM
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It is the exaggerated fear of all that is in wilderness that drives many to feel that these places need to be tamed.

Ken,

I think you found some common ground with this statement. Bears are just one of the dangers that people have to cope with in the wilderness. It's on par with getting hit by lightening, very rare, but when the tree nearby gets struck and falls over, you need good advice. Science and statistics are very helpful in evaluating the true risk of things, and should be foundational for decision making. When risks are overplayed (read "hyped by the media looking for ratings") or underplayed (by well meaning "experts"), people with common sense experience need to weigh in. Please don't throw people out with the bathwater because we don't happen to agree with the particular expert your quote.

Here's a quote from an equally eminent "expert" on Momma bears and cubs:

"Mother bears, whenever they feel threatened or a person is too close, they act very aggressively," said Stephen Herrero, the study's lead author. "They make noise, they swat the ground with their paws and they run at people. They want to make you think that they'll eat you alive, but they almost always stop."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html


Re: Bears
Ken #24975 06/11/12 10:03 PM
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It is the exaggerated fear of all that is in wilderness that drives many to feel that these places need to be tamed.

...and perhaps drives authorities to slap lower and lower limits on quotas on popular trails. wink

Re: Bears
SierraNevada #24979 06/12/12 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada

My personal experience is similar to your personal experience, Black bears have been mostly a nuisance to me. But is it really good advice to insist that people should feel comfortable getting between Momma bears and her cubs? I'm just not buying that advice.


Hmmmm, not sure what you're reading. I never have said you should get between a mom and her cubs. In fact, that would be plain stupid. Probably not good advice to buy, wherever you read it. I just thought those cute little cubs were adorable :-)

As far as driving on the 395....... I've been on it, either as a kid with my parents or as a driver for 48 of my 55 years. I can tell you one thing..... way too many people have been killed on it, including hikers. I'm old enough to remember an entire family of 7 killed in their station wagon at the bottom of Sherwin grade decades ago. It's a better highway than it used to be, but mostly past the 14 interchange. I guess I'll consider the danger of bears after one wipes out an entire family of 7. Til then, I'll avoid them and hope they avoid me.

Okay.... since it's late and I got started. If a hiker is afraid of bears, maybe they should put on their pack, go to the gym and get on a treadmill. Truth is, people are the ones who screw up the wilderness, kill the animals out of fear and then blame the animal. I've seen bears and even a mountain lion on hiking trails. They just don't want to kill you, they don't want to eat you, they don't want you period. So, next time you see a bear, wave a friendly "Thank You" to him for allowing you to walk, hike, climb, fish, cook, camp and occasionally crap in his woods. In all honesty, you're the trespasser. And as I've already told my friends, if a Mountain Lion or Bear eats me, leave 'em be...... I was in his home.

Oh crap, I know one of those lines in my last paragraph is gonna get some kind of response from Burchey.... !



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Re: Bears
quillansculpture #24982 06/12/12 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: quillansculpture
Hmmmm, not sure what you're reading. I never have said you should get between a mom and her cubs. In fact, that would be plain stupid. Probably not good advice to buy, wherever you read it. I just thought those cute little cubs were adorable :-)

I guess you missed the post that triggered the discussion over the Momma bear - cub issue. It all started with a quote by an expert that portrays the Momma bear - cub threat as a hoax or myth. The Momma bear situation is a lot less common statistically than human-bear encounters over food, but it still can be dangerous and should not be downplayed because bear cubs are so cute.

And you are absolutely right about the relative risk of driving, its orders of magnitude larger than all other risks combined, except smoking. The annualized loss of life from traffic accidents is about 1/1000, which is used in risk management as a baseline for "acceptable" risk because people are willing to keep driving. Odds of dying in the wilderness from any cause is much much much lower, but things do happen and people need to be prepared.

Re: Bears
SierraNevada #24985 06/12/12 08:53 AM
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Not to divert this thread, but if you include the number of hours people are in a car, and use the number of hours people are hiking, and then compare the death rates, I don't think the automobile death rate is orders of magnitude greater. I am sure it is higher than death by hiking, but deaths per hour of hiking, when you bring in the incidence of death by heart attacks, HAPE/HACE, hypothermia, etc, it does get up there.

Death by bear is at or near zero, but not death by hiking.

Re: Bears
Ken #24986 06/12/12 08:59 AM
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Quote:
It is the exaggerated fear of all that is in wilderness that drives many to feel that these places need to be tamed.

I couldn't agree more.

CaT


If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it.
- Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
Re: Bears
SierraNevada #24987 06/12/12 09:15 AM
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Gotta admit, I didn't see that post.
I think what hikers on the Mt Whitney Trail really need to be careful of is...... The Grouse!

Yep, an oldie, but goodie :-)

When Psycho Grouse Attack


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Re: Bears
Steve C #25003 06/12/12 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
... if you include the number of hours people are in a car, and use the number of hours people are hiking, and then compare the death rates, I don't think the automobile death rate is orders of magnitude greater. I am sure it is higher than death by hiking, but deaths per hour of hiking, when you bring in the incidence of death by heart attacks, HAPE/HACE, hypothermia, etc, it does get up there.
thanks
I assume that climbing and mountaineering are more dangerous than driving.
I do not have numbers to prove this but this claim is consistent with my own experience.

Re: Bears
Steve C #25010 06/12/12 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
Not to divert this thread, but if you include the number of hours people are in a car, and use the number of hours people are hiking, and then compare the death rates, I don't think the automobile death rate is orders of magnitude greater. I am sure it is higher than death by hiking, but deaths per hour of hiking, when you bring in the incidence of death by heart attacks, HAPE/HACE, hypothermia, etc, it does get up there.

Death by bear is at or near zero, but not death by hiking.

Any discussion of risk has to have a framework. I deal with low probability events (dam failure) with extreme consequence and we use annualized loss of life framework, a similar risk management approach as insurance providers, nuclear plants, and airplane safety. In each of these instances, the population at risk is doing little to contribute to their risk except living near a hazard or boarding a plane. It's a passive risk that society is generally willing to accept for the rewards that we receive. Some will move far away from a nuclear plant or dam and some will never get on a plane, but those are exceptions. As long as the risk is low enough, and the rewards are high enough, society reluctantly accepts it.

In the case of hiking or mountain climbing or sky diving or smoking cigarettes, the person is accepting unusual risk and hopefully managing it wisely. Everyone has their own risk tolerance for these activities. For some people the whole point of the activity is to push risk to the limit. Other people won't go near a roller coaster.

The other complication that you point out is the time factor. A sky dive is over in a few minutes, hiking or mountain climbing might be a few days at a time. These are hard to break down into an annualized loss of life. Driving is something most everyone does almost every day so that works well for a baseline. Furthermore, there are shades of risk within these activities - it's more risky to climb half dome in a thunderstorm than to hike a Sequoia grove in sunny weather.

If this isn't enough complication, how do you measure the risk? Should you compare it to the entire population or just to the people who choose to do that activity? This is where getting hit by lightening seems impossible to the average person, but quite likely if you work in a fire lookout on a mountain top. The risk is then portrayed as "1 in a million chance" of getting hit by lightening.

One last point about risk is the perception factor. Society is less accepting of risk to a large group of people all at once. There are about 30,000 auto deaths each year, almost 100 each day in the US. It barely makes the news. But if a plane with 100 people crashes it's obviously a very big deal. If one crashed every day people would not fly. But we accept the same consequence as long as it's a few here and a few there. The other perception factor is the media. There have been what, about 70 deaths from bear attacks in the last 100 years, but people are irrationally fearful because the media sensationalizes it. People visualize the gruesome nature of it and they lose sight of the true risk.

Human nature, go figure.

Re: Bears
Yury #25011 06/12/12 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: Yury
Originally Posted By: Steve C
... if you include the number of hours people are in a car, and use the number of hours people are hiking, and then compare the death rates, I don't think the automobile death rate is orders of magnitude greater. I am sure it is higher than death by hiking, but deaths per hour of hiking, when you bring in the incidence of death by heart attacks, HAPE/HACE, hypothermia, etc, it does get up there.
thanks
I assume that climbing and mountaineering are more dangerous than driving.
I do not have numbers to prove this but this claim is consistent with my own experience.

It all comes down to the framework used to compare risks. I had a long explanation but it really comes down to how people want to look at it. Personally, I care about how I'm most likely to die over a lifetime, not per hour in the wilderness. I look at the statistics and know I'm much more likely to die driving over a lifetime than from hiking down a trail in the wilderness. Climbing 14ers brings added risk for sure, but for the average person who does a Whitney trip June - August once or a few times in a lifetime, I'd bet heavy on the car crash.

I just hope I die peacefully in my sleep like Grandpa, not screaming like his passengers.

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