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WAG Bag Spotters
#26439 08/02/12 01:20 AM
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Not the lightest topic here, but we all need to poop. Some just take care of it better than others.

In this post, + @ti2d Gary wrote:
Originally Posted By: + @ti2d
There is one thing I forgot to mention:

I must have counted AT LEAST 20 WAG BAGS along the trail.

Just past the last water crossing before Trail Camp, someone placed a green tent sleeve off-trail. You didn't have to look what was inside. You could smell it. Hideous. sick mad cry frown

I counted 4 on the SBs, 3 on the "Hypoxic Highway" between JMT and the summit. mad

There are other reports, too.

I'd just like to get an idea of how many people are seeing or smelling on the trail this summer. Numbers are good. A picture or two maybe.

thanks





Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Steve C #26447 08/02/12 08:05 AM
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My guess for every one seen there 10 more that are not. I counted a dozen from Guitar Lake to WP my last trip.

It sounds like the problem is getting worse, not better.

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
wbtravis #26450 08/02/12 08:46 AM
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When I was up there in June I only counted one...now 1 is still too many. Maybe I just wasn't looking hard enough. :-)

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Steve C #26452 08/02/12 11:00 AM
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Poop pictures? "Waste" of time...(I also saw the scarred face of a rock on the summit with someone's initials along with the remnants of someone's graffiti)

I wasn't out "looking" out for these...they were in my line of sight. Beauty ruined by a F****** bag or a smell that could gag a maggot.

Again, hideous, but sad at the same time...My how time changes things...

How long will it be before all of these freshwater sources (i.e., the BHP spring, SB 23, the inlet) along the MWT become contaminated with E. coli...

I am reminded of the 70s commercial with Iron Eyes Cody of the "Keep America Beautiful" PSA.
The environmental commercial showed Cody as an Indian, shedding a tear after people throw trash from a speeding car and it lands at his feet. The announcer, William Conrad, says: "People start pollution; people can stop it."

I, too, shed a tear...I, too, want to stop it...

I want the children of those who post here and on the WPSMB to enjoy what my wife, I, and my friends have enjoyed and respected.

The pictures in this post sends it home...6-year-old on Whitney

Will there be any beauty left for her children to enjoy? Will there be smiles? Will there be tears?

My wife and I are willing to step up to contribute and rid of these bags along the MWT. We are not looking for a free pass, a free ride or free room and board. We will pay for the permit (to squeeze in a summit possibility), will pay for our food, and will pay for our room or campsite.

We will pay our dues to clean up the "do."

Leader or follower...whatever it takes...





Before its gone... frown


Journey well...
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
+ @ti2d #26461 08/02/12 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: + @ti2d
Poop pictures? "Waste" of time...

I have to agree.
Last September as we were filtering water at the trail camp pond just before sunrise a camper came out of a tent and walked down to the egde of the pond and pi$$ed in the wet sand at the edge. I could have photogaraphed him but I just shot the sunrise.

Quote:
I wasn't out "looking" out for these...they were in my line of sight. Beauty ruined by a F****** bag or a smell that could gag a maggot.

My usual practise for Whitney dayhikes is to start at 2am. Even when there were functioning toilets along the trail it was not rare to find fresh solid human deposits on the trail itself before sunrise. (Apparantly people were self-conscious about TP or they weren't using any.) I have to admit I never moved others' deposits at least 100 feet from the trail either.
On July 18 this year, I hiked up to Cottonwood Lakes, stopping to fish at the first two stream crossings. On that trail, the rules are to deposit and bury at least 100 feet from water and trail and carry out TP. It is the nature of some parts of the eastern Sierra (including MMWT) that the best personal cover is provided by the riparian growth along streams. As I skulked through the willows from little pool to little pool I found a number of TP accompanied deposits. The willows are not more than 15 feet from the stream there and the deposits were often within 100 feet of the trail. (How far upstream do you go to get your water?) If you want to consider the effects of wag bags, it is only fair to compare to a similar situation without.

Quote:
Again, hideous, but sad at the same time.

My how time changes things...


Time and place seem to change little. Except, there are plasic wrappers on the MMWT now! smile

Edit: Please don't let this fool you into believing that all abandoned deposits are now in plastic wrappers (just as they never all made it into toilets).

Dale B. Dalrymple

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
dbd #26465 08/02/12 05:36 PM
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Oh man, I don't know what's sadder...the posts on the WZ relaying news about hikers who recently lost their lives or about poop and used wag bags found on the trails. What in the heck is going on...I learned wilderness etiquette from my parents when I was young and as an adult the Sierra Club reinforced what my parents taught me...PURE COMMON SENSE ON HOW TO TAKE CARE OF THE WORLD, OUR BIG HOUSE WE ALL SHARE.


Lynnaroo
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
lynn-a-roo #26467 08/02/12 06:23 PM
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There is a wag bag problem, but it isn't quite as bad as everyone thinks. I left mine (used) at Outpost Camp last Sunday morning and picked it up on my way out Monday afternoon. In between I'm sure quite a few people spotted it and thought the worst.

That day and the next I saw several on my way up that were gone on my way down. I surmised that the depositors also saw no reason to carry excess crap to the summit and back, and were doing the right thing.

Knowing that people go off trail to do their deed, I would think that--if they were going to abandon it--they would do so off trail as well. But people who are conscientious would bring it to the trail so they could easily spot it on the way down. I'd like to think that every bag left by the trail is one of those.

No question there's a problem, but there's more to it than meets the eye (or nose).

By the way, I have a hell of a time containing the odor, and it's clear that others do too. It really helps to bring along a new gallon-size freezer bag, and put wag and contents in that for the carryout.

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Bob R #26474 08/02/12 10:47 PM
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Whenever I or a member of my hiking party uses a wag bag on the way up, we usually "stash" it for retrieval on the way down. We often find a way to run side bets to see who gets stuck carrying them out. Makes for a fun way to pass the time. We always try to hide them if possible and mark the spot on the GPS. We have never left a bag behind. I see no reason for them to travel to the summit if you are coming out the way you go in. The only time I've ever had a used wag on the summit is when I went up the MR and down the MT with Richard..............................................DUG

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Bob R #26479 08/03/12 08:00 AM
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Duly noted, Bob. It would make sense NOT to take it to the summit. I never thought of it that way. Thank you for your perspective and clarification. That assuages me.

It has been more than 4 years since my wife and I have been to the summit. Granted, the beauty of the granite sentinels leave us in awe...it is the little things that caught our eyes.

In my group, we had 4 first-timers. I hope the sight of the bags did not ruin their adventure. At least they said nothing to me or my wife although they had that "WTF look" on their faces.


As for that green tent sleeve...





Journey well...
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Bob R #26484 08/03/12 08:49 AM
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Bob, I noticed a similar thing last August. The visual impact of bags on the trail is not the only impact going on, it's just the most obvious indicator. My daughter and I saw, stepped over, or stepped around 10 or 12 bags on the way up and about half as many on the way down. It may be logical to stash them temporarily, but it's still an eyesore for everyone else unless it's hidden and not forgotten on the way down.

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
SierraNevada #26492 08/03/12 05:47 PM
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It would be very easy for NPS and USFS to require applying name and address of the permittee in indelible marker when issuing, and fining for defacing or obscuring the ID.


Wherever you go, there you are.
SPOTMe!
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
saltydog #26494 08/03/12 06:46 PM
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Better yet - number the WAG bags and mark down the numbers handed out (or have a barcode and scan them) on their permit.

Then the recovered WAG bags (at the end of the high season) could be traced back to a permit where they already have all the information on the person. Fines could be issued for those that leave them on the mountain. This could all be automated fairly easily and would not require much extra work beyond what is done now.

I'm sure word would spread very quickly once fines started being issued, and people would think twice before ditching their bag on the trail.

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
saltydog #26495 08/03/12 06:58 PM
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Actually SaltyDog, they can't enforce the use of WAG bags because there is no Forest Service Order requiring you to use one. It's "voluntary" not that you have any reasonable alternative since they removed the toilets, but they don't have legal authority to do anything special to catch or prosecute anyone. They could get people for littering but that's about it. I don't think they want to open the legal can of worms they have created.

Back in 2004-06 the former Whitney District Ranger Garry Oye circumvented the NEPA environmental review process when he implemented this WAG bag program. He ignored the impacts stated in the Environmental Assessment and he ignored the public comments, which were running 141 against WAG bags to 19 for WAG bags and implemented this program without a decision document required to complete the NEPA process. If they ever had to defend what they did in court, they could be defeated by a first year law student.

These enforcement ideas come up over and over again to solve the human waste problem with poop police. Sorry, think of another idea, say maybe toilets. Another alternative might be to install collection receptacles where people could do their business in the plastic bag, but have a choice whether or not to carry the stinky mess back to the trailhead or deposit it into a storage container. Now that would be a truly "voluntary" program and it would probably work as well as toilets.

The facts, references, and debate are all discussed in detail at Solar Toilets vs Carrying Wag Bags

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
SierraNevada #26500 08/03/12 10:58 PM
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Hey! Keep this thread ON topic! Go to that other thread if you want to debate what to do. Keep the debate over there. This one is for the spotters.

Last time I went up the trail, I didn't see any wag bags. But then I only made it to Mirror Lake, and it was very early in the season. Hope to get back there later this summer.

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Steve C #26502 08/04/12 04:19 AM
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Spot on.

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Bob R #26510 08/04/12 02:48 PM
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BobR.....I have to agree with you...many people stash their wagbags off trail when heading to the summit...actually I And my friends stashed ours on our last three treks up the Main MW trail and grabbed them on our way down...I even put notes on our wagbags to the attn of the ranger with my name on it and permit days so he or she knew who left it and that I had every intention of carrying it out to the portal on my return.


Lynnaroo
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
lynn-a-roo #26514 08/04/12 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: lynn-a-roo
I even put notes on our wagbags to the attn of the ranger with my name on it and permit days so he or she knew who left it and that I had every intention of carrying it out to the portal on my return.


How considerate of you; my faith in the human race has just gone up a notch.


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Bee #26516 08/04/12 08:53 PM
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Two, dear, notches, that is.


Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Steve C #26554 08/06/12 07:23 AM
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Hiked up on July 19 and spotted at least 6 different WAG bags on the way up and more on the way down.

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Steve C #26560 08/06/12 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
Hey! Keep this thread ON topic! Go to that other thread if you want to debate what to do. Keep the debate over there. This one is for the spotters.

Last time I went up the trail, I didn't see any wag bags. But then I only made it to Mirror Lake, and it was very early in the season. Hope to get back there later this summer.


Glad to comply: I have a few questions, particularly about rules and enforcement: going over there now, SierraNevada


Wherever you go, there you are.
SPOTMe!
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Steve C #26568 08/06/12 10:17 AM
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Summited on July 9th, saw at least 6 different wag bags on the trail. Some folks seems to think that there is wag bag pick up service and as long as you leave it on the trail, somebody will pick it up. Makes me mad.

Thx123


Thx123 "Woody"
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
thx123 #26569 08/06/12 10:26 AM
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Camping at Trail Camp Saturday night restored my knowledge of why I hate to camp at Trail Camp.

Found a great pad up on the rocks, away from the trail. It was past sundown, just light enough to set up without my head lamp. I pounded in the front stake, then went around to a back corner of the tent.

Almost lost my dinner when I got a nose-full of stale piss in the corner of the tent platform.

Congratulations to the hordes for perhaps driving me out of the Whitney Zone once and for all.

-L


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Think outside the Zone.
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
SierraNevada #26570 08/06/12 10:58 AM
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Let's hope there is NONE for Spot.


Journey well...
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
MooseTracks #26574 08/06/12 11:37 AM
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Yeessss. Now you know why I haven't been back to Whitney in 25 years. Whitney: the Sewer Zone.







Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Bob West #26672 08/08/12 06:40 AM
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Seems a little harsh, Bob. It ain't no "wilderness" but it's not a "sewer" either.

It makes me wonder if some people who insist that modern solar toilets won't work (despite the fact they work on Long's Pk at 12,000 ft) are just waiting for the impacts to get bad enough, and then argue the quotas will need to be greatly reduced. That change might take place in a larger framework like the Wilderness Stewardship Plan, or elsewhere. Keep an eye out for that.

Can someone describe the WAG bag/disposal conditions on the other side of the crest, from the JMT/MMWT junction on down to Crabtree? What do hikers do headed in that direction with a full bag? Are people retrieving bags left on the trail? Thanks.

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
MooseTracks #26732 08/09/12 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: MooseTracks
Congratulations to the hordes for perhaps driving me out of the Whitney Zone once and for all.


Poor baby. And what do you do with your urine?

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Joe Btfsblk #26734 08/09/12 07:15 AM
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Urine is separated in the toilet and then evaporated using solar collectors and battery powered fans. Oops, that's what they do at 12,700ft in Colorado. Never mind. At 12,000 ft on Mt Whitney urine goes mostly on the ground. Tons each year. Hopefully a lot of it evaporates, but I think Laura's experience is not uncommon. She knows the mountains, Joe.

Back on topic, does anyone have a report on the WAG bag situation from the JMT junction down the other side of the mountain?

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
SierraNevada #26735 08/09/12 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada


Can someone describe the WAG bag/disposal conditions on the other side of the crest, from the JMT/MMWT junction on down to Crabtree? What do hikers do headed in that direction with a full bag? Are people retrieving bags left on the trail? Thanks.


NoBo JMT hikers and EtW HST hikers, etc are told they are not required to bag. I doubt that affects many, however. I wonder how many through hikers start at Whitney these days, compared with the total permits issued?


Wherever you go, there you are.
SPOTMe!
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
SierraNevada #26796 08/10/12 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
It ain't no "wilderness" but it's not a "sewer" either.


On 8/8 I met a ranger coming down from collecting water samples for coliform. He stated that even Trail Camp Lake is pretty clean, and that even the LA aqueduct itself sometimes tests positive while it sucks the Owens Valley dry.

Trail Camp did smell a bit, though. I collected my water up at the faster flowing inlet, and used chlorine dioxide

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Harvey Lankford #26799 08/10/12 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Harvey Lankford
I collected my water up at the faster flowing inlet, and used chlorine dioxide


WHUT??!! How dare you violate the sanctity of Dip 'n' Sip!!!! grin

Hope you are having fun, Harvey! BTW, the webcam is showing some sort of cloud white out -- what is the weather like??

Cheers!

Bee


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Harvey Lankford #26801 08/10/12 06:28 PM
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With the large volume of snowmelt available to flush the area each year, it's pretty unlikely that surface water quality will be impacted. It may be accumulating at depth in rock cracks and the tons of urine are quite "noticeable", but I doubt it will ever show up as a problem in typical surface water testing. By the way, he should have been in a hurry to get the samples to the lab for testing that day, which could be challenging.

HOLD TIMES
Fecal coliforms must be run within 6 hours of sample collection.

Total coliforms, E. coli, Fecal streptococcus, Sewage Screen, Legionella sp., and Heterotrophic Plate Count samples need to be run within 24 hours of sample collection.

If hold times are exceeded results are invalid and this will be noted on reports.

All samples must be shipped cold, not frozen and should remain up right, use ice packs, not soda bottles filled with frozen water, bags of ice or just loose ice. Samples that are not shipped properly could end up getting contaminated or rejected.

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
SierraNevada #26817 08/11/12 09:26 AM
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RE: sample preservation
Ranger had samples in cooler, I assume ice pack was in there.

also, it took me 3.5 hrs to descend from TrailCamp to Whitney Portal even with my gimpy 8 month old swollen total knee. titanium did fine but soft parts hurt a bit. Ranger could get down quicker.

Bee - RE: clouds . Monsoonal south flow has been going on for 10 days. We had temps 40-50 at night on JMT, even camping at 11k. Was ugly 83F heatwave climbing Mather. Ugh.

On Whitney we had 2 hrs of rain hail lightning on 8/8, lesser storm on my summit day 8/9. Descended to Lone Pine and drove north..... after Bishop at around 8pm saw strange white cloud hugely billowing up toward the north plus lightning off to its right - it was a lightning strike brush fire in the Mono Lake area. My cousin in Lee Vining has some pics - maybe later, I am now at McCarren with flight delay. Harvey

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Harvey Lankford #26840 08/11/12 05:27 PM
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As Wagga says, no pix, it didn't happen. Where did you start your JMT hike?

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
SierraNevada #26850 08/11/12 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
As Wagga says, no pix, it didn't happen. Where did you start your JMT hike?


huh? pics of what? the ranger carrying a cooler?

Did South Lake/Bishop to Kearsarge/Onion first, then one night off before skipping to do Whitney from east. Had done Onion to Whitney or MR multiple times before, so skipped west side JMT approach this time


Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Harvey Lankford #26851 08/11/12 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Harvey Lankford
2 hrs of rain hail lightning...strange white cloud hugely billowing up...lightning strike brush fire. My cousin in Lee Vining has some pics - maybe later. Harvey


No Harvey, not pictures of an ice cooler. Seems like you had some exciting Eastern Sierra monsoon weather and an awesome JMT hike, or did you? Like Wagga says, no pix, it never happened. I'd say you need to post a more complete trip report to back this up... smile

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
SierraNevada #26858 08/12/12 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: SierraNevada
I'd say you need to post a more complete trip report to back this up... smile


patience,

just got back to VA and slept 12 hrs. TR later for the 5 of us on Bishop to Kearsarge, and TR for my son Seth and I on Whitney.




Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Harvey Lankford #26867 08/12/12 04:30 PM
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fire on the mountain run boy run

this was the recent Mono Lake area sage brush fire started by lightning - my cousin took this picture in Lee Vining area, we could see the billowing up from 395 as far away as the stretch between Bishop and Mammoth and commented that we had never seen such an odd cloud at sunset over the Owens Valley.

Some of the cloud is cloud, some is smoke cloud, both lit up from below by the fire, and above by the setting sun. There were lightning flashes within the purely smoke areas over to the right, presumably from all the stirred-up charged particulate matter.



Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Harvey Lankford #26879 08/12/12 11:07 PM
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That IS an odd picture, Harvey. Thanks for posting it.

Re: WAG Bag Spotters
Harvey Lankford #26902 08/13/12 10:04 AM
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The sky and clouds look very much like an Ovanes Berberian painting. Artists and people in Idaho will know what I mean.

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