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SPOT Satellite Messenger Problems
#26196 07/25/12 03:12 PM
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Steve C edit 8-25-13: Subject title changed.
New: SPOT Satellite Messenger Problems
See this post for the issues.

Old title was: Spot Me questions
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Hi All,
I have noticed a few members use "Spot Me", and I am wondering about your experiences, and what Hardware you have. It seems, that for hiking/camping there are two options as far as hardware goes:
- The Spot Connect is the newest option I think, and the combination of H/W & software is perhaps a bit unstable/buggy at this time. Uses an app on your iPhone/Android to create custom messages, and has all other functions of the Spot GPS Messenger. H/W and phone use Bluetooth to connect. A little more complicated than the SPOT GPS Messenger, and it requires both devices to be working (I think). Lindbergh used single engine plane to cross the Atlantic, since twin engine had double the chance of engine failure, which would have resulted in failure (and most likely death).
- The Spot GPS Messenger seems to have replaced the original SPOT hardware, is smaller, and perhaps more reliable? Limited outgoing messages, but probably enough to serve it's function.
As I understand it both of these devices need the satellite to be in view, and the satellite must also have a ground station in view at the same time in order to relay the message. No "buffer" to send later, so successful transmission/reception relies on satellite being position such that two ground locations are in view at the same time. Net result is that message transmission and reception can be delayed.
Is this your experience?
Any other comments would be appreciated. Please feel free to edit or correct any of my above comments.

I guess there is another option: InReach. Have any of you considered this?

Thanks,
John

Last edited by Steve C; 08/25/13 02:53 PM.
Re: Spot Me questions
John Sims #26215 07/26/12 12:02 AM
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John, I have a SPOT 1 and a SPOT 2. #1 was idle until yesterday when I re-activated it -- I've loaned it to a northbound JMT hiker. And my #2 will be loaned to a southbound hiker later this month. Pretty cool that they will probably meet, and I'll be watching! smile

As for the Spot Connect, I don't have one, but I'd assume the Android phone is only required for the text entry. No way it would need to be connected to a cellular system -- that would make the other device much less useful. But yes the phone would need to be operational in that it could accept text input, and pass it via the Bluetooth link to the SPOT unit. It would be a foolish hiker to leave the phone on and drain its power while in the backcountry.

As for unstable: They are quite stable in my opinion. One just needs to understand their limitations: They need to be able to lock onto GPS satellites to gain your location. So being in a valley with steep/high sides could be a problem. Also, under trees, they can lose their location. Today, we were playing with Spot 1, and it lost location because we were standing near and overhanging roof, with half the sky visible. Ten feet away would have been fine.

Second part, the SPOT needs access to the satellites receiving its signals. That has several limitations: First, there are periods when there is no satellite in view. Second, the SPOT MUST be placed face up. I carry mine attached to the shoulder strap of my pack, right on top of my shoulder. And then, when in Sierra forest cover, many times the signals don't get out.

To compensate for the problems below the forest canopy, and where no satellite is available, the units transmit a signal every 5 minutes. A common mistake some people make is to turn on the SPOT, send an OK signal, then turn it off within 10 minutes. The unit has only transmitted once, so if no satellite was above, no signal got out.

I'm not sure about the receiving satellite needing to also be connected to a ground station. But then, in the Sierra, I am sure the satellites are in contact.

It has been my experience that no messages are delayed. Either they make it right away to the SPOT site, or they never do.

Regarding InReach from DeLorme: it costs $250, and the DeLorme Earthmate PN-60W GPS unit is $350. LL Bean doesn't report what a subscription for the satellite service costs. Do you know?

Re: Spot Me questions
Steve C #26223 07/26/12 08:41 AM
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Thanks Steve,
Prices for InReach service as follows:

           Safety Plan     Recreation Plan   Expedition Plan
Price $9.95 Monthly $24.95 Monthly $49.95 Monthly
SOS Unlimited Unlimited Unlimited
Messages 10 per month 40 per month 120 per month
Tracking Not Included Unlimited Unlimited
Overage $1.50 message $0.50 message $0.25 message
$0.25 Track


Sorry, for "funky format".
Note, these are "monthly", so for full service you are looking at $600.00/year, and still have 120/month limitation on messages. I'm not sure if "messages" includes "OK", but it does include unlimited "tracking", so this may not be a severe limitation.

I gather the basis for these high prices is the "two way" communications. InReach confirms message sent, and can receive messages as well as sending. The InReach folks claim superior Satellite system (Iridium).

It does "seem" the InReach product offers more, but not sure if the price justifies the "more". Basic Spot would meet most (if not all critical) needs.

My comment on "stability" had more to do with the "connect" and smart phone. Some reported cases of difficulty linking via Bluetooth, and at least one report that the system was completely disabled due to communication issues between the Spot and the smartphone.

Link that has more information is interesting:
http://blog.delorme.com/2011/09/


Comments?

Re: Spot Me questions
John Sims #26225 07/26/12 09:18 AM
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YIKES on the prices!

Re: Spot Me questions
Steve C #26226 07/26/12 09:31 AM
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Yes, "Yikes" on the prices.

Not quite there, but getting close to the cost of a Sat Phone.

The InReach does work with your Smartphone, so no need for their GPS on top of the InReach, and I think the InReach will work "standalone".


Re: Spot Me questions
John Sims #26243 07/26/12 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: John Sims
Yes, "Yikes" on the prices.

Not quite there, but getting close to the cost of a Sat Phone.

The InReach does work with your Smartphone, so no need for their GPS on top of the InReach, and I think the InReach will work "standalone".



If you look around you will find that a sat phone monthly plan (without cancelation penatly) is $30 for Inmarsat, and $40 for Iridium now. Now that you can just pay for a month and then add airtime if you actually need to use it, the cost of operating a sat phone part time has come down significantly.

http://www.roadpost.com/Iridium-Phone-Subscriptions-P705C280.aspx

http://www.roadpost.com/IsatPhone-Pro-Subscription-P732C404.aspx

I certainly am on my last year of my Spot subscription. Need to make sure I contact them now so I don't forget before the auto renewal strikes again.



Re: Spot Me questions
Fishmonger #26253 07/26/12 09:41 PM
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And for people who only want to use it occasionally or want to try it before buying, renting can be an option.

http://www.lowergear.com/product.php/id/261


Re: Spot Me questions
Fishmonger #28183 09/30/12 06:55 PM
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I looked at the cost of a Satellite Phone, and finally came to the conclusion that they cost more than I care to spend. I ended up buying an InReach from REI. They had a $50.00 rebate, pluse at REI you get 10% credit, so final cost was 175.00 plus tax. Not so much more than the Spot.

I signed up for the most basic plan. Since I am an "occasional" user, the extra $5.00 for tracking is small, and the 10 messages/month is likely adequate for me (they do count messages to their advantage. One message to two people counts as two messages). So, my monthly cost is really on $9.95 plus a bit more for those months where I use the unit, and so in the final analysis is similar to Spot in total cost. Plus you do have the option of two way communication, and I do think the Iridium Satallite System is better than GlobalStar.

I used the InReach on my recent hike up the Mountaineer's route, down the Main Trail. You can see the tracking info in the picture gallery.

Re: Spot Me questions
John Sims #28185 09/30/12 08:53 PM
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I understand that you'd need your phone to be working in order to send a custom message via Spot Connect. Does anyone know if there is some sort of failsafe - ie, your phone dies, but you're still able to send a distress signal?

Also, what is the battery life on these things if you're using them to track. How often do they update your location.?

Re: Spot Me questions
63ChevyII.com #28188 09/30/12 10:28 PM
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John, nice tracking map.   (link)   That anomalous point that should have been at the Portal is similar to what Spot units do in deep canyons where the GPS satellites are obscured by steep canyon walls. Every so often, they will throw out a location that is obviously off the mark. Must be due to having too few satellites in view.

63, The Spot Connect user manual is here. It mentions two buttons: On/Off, and the SOS button. At least they put that on the device, in case the phone dies. It appears there are no other functions that would operate independently of the phone. Pretty strange -- the manual does not show where the buttons are.

While we're on the topic, Bob Pickering posted this on wpsmb:
Originally Posted By: bobpickering
I just wanted to add a bit of information on Spot performance:

I've been using a Spot 2 since shortly after they came out. I normally climb above tree line, and the vast majority of my Tracking, Custom, and OK messages get out. I climbed Tehipite Dome yesterday, where I spent nearly the whole day under the cover of the trees. Only 36 messages got out, when there should have been at least 90. The elapsed time between two of my tracking messages was two hours and 37 minutes. If tracking messages weren't getting out, there is a good chance that a 911 wouldn't have gotten out either.

It's no secret that performance may suffer when reception is obstructed, but I didn't expect it to be this bad. I always assumed that most of the complaining about poor performance was due to improper orientation of the antenna, failure to read the manual, or other fixable issues. Now I know how much difference the trees can make. I'll try to stay away from sub-10K peaks from now on.


When I was finishing my trip several weeks ago, the last couple of Spot signals did not get out, when I was near or at Whitney Portal. Too many trees there for a Spot.

Re: Spot Me questions
John Sims #28191 10/01/12 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: John Sims
I looked at the cost of a Satellite Phone, and finally came to the conclusion that they cost more than I care to spend. I ended up buying an InReach from REI. They had a $50.00 rebate, pluse at REI you get 10% credit, so final cost was 175.00 plus tax. Not so much more than the Spot.


I was in front of the same decision and chose a sat phone a week ago. I went the other way, though.

The phone I bought (Isatphone Pro) cost me $485, and I have 2 years of prepaid service with 100 minutes for $142. My spot without tracking costs $198 for two years of basic service, so unless I get chatty, my running cost is lower than for that orange brick I have never had any use for.

The initial cost of the phone is significant, but I have been in situations that really asked for a phone while the 911 button on the Spot was clearly not within the threshold of the situation yet. Calling a doctor or nurse was what I needed, and texting isn't going to get me what I need in such a situation, although I can use the phone to send and receive texts for things like weather updates and other basic stuff to save airtime.

I'm taking the new phone to Isle Royale tomorrow - first test in the field, although nothing like the Sierras, where steep mountain faces to the southwest can keep the Inmarsat from locating the satellite it needs to talk to. If money was absolutely no issue, the Iridium phones with their low orbit satellite network are what I would choose, but the sticker shock for device and mostly the ridiculous prepaid costs was enough to go with the Insmarsat.





Re: Spot Me questions
Fishmonger #28193 10/01/12 07:54 AM
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Quote:
I'm taking the new phone to Isle Royale tomorrow

We need a picture of Moose Boulder!

"Siskiwit Lake contains several islands, including Ryan Island, the largest, which contains Moose Flats, a seasonal pond, which contains Moose Boulder. When Moose Flats is a pond, Moose Boulder becomes the largest island in the largest lake on the largest island in the largest lake on the largest island in the largest lake in the world."

Wiki here.


Verum audaces non gerunt indusia alba. - Ipsi dixit MCMLXXII
Re: Spot Me questions
wagga #28194 10/01/12 08:33 AM
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hmm... it's a little disappointing to think that my cell phone might actually do a better job of tracking than the SPOT does. It's too bad it can't broadcast my location without a network connection.

Last edited by 63ChevyII.com; 10/01/12 08:34 AM.
Re: Spot Me questions
Steve C #28197 10/01/12 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C


63, The Spot Connect user manual is here. It mentions two buttons: On/Off, and the SOS button. At least they put that on the device, in case the phone dies. It appears there are no other functions that would operate independently of the phone. Pretty strange -- the manual does not show where the buttons are.



Thanks for the info Steve.

When I say that my android is pretty good at tracking my hikes, here's an example of something that was created using my phone to track my hike:
MWMT 3D Flyover

Re: Spot Me questions
63ChevyII.com #28198 10/01/12 11:10 AM
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I got dizzy watching that "flyover"! grin

63 wrote:
> When I say that my android is pretty good at tracking my hikes, here's an example of something that was created using my phone to track my hike:

I just don't understand why Spot picks up and sends out bogus locations occasionally like that, when all the other GPS devices seem to do fine.

But the other side: Being able to transmit your location to a satellite is trickier. That is where the problem with deep canyons and trees comes into play.

Even in a canyon, if one needed to send an SOS message, setting the unit out in a clearing, and allowing it to run 30 minutes would get the signal out.

Re: Spot Me questions
63ChevyII.com #28199 10/01/12 11:10 AM
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63 Chevyll,
Your original question was:If your phone dies, are you still able to send a distress signal?

With the InReach the answer is Yes. The device can act "stand alone" or in conjunction with your smart phone. Coupling with the smart phone (iPhone for me) has a few advantages, like text messages (two way), viewing your location on a map, etc..., but a smart phone is not required to send messages or to use the Emergency "SOS" feature. You program three messages via a web interface (from your home computer), and you can send any of those three messges by use of buttons on the InReach device. You can enable tracking or disable tracking, but doing so with a smart phone gives more options on frequency of tracking information.

The Inreach Satellite Communications device uses the Iridium Satellite system which I believe is a bit more reliable than the Globalstar system (used by Spot), so Bob Pickering's comments may not apply.

The battery life of the InReach is now over 100 hours, so easily in excess of one week, and all that is required is fresh batteries to get another week. The iPhone's battery life is much shorter, but by using the DeLorme maps you can run the iPhone in "Airplane mode", meaning the battery life is much better. If going out for many days a solar charge would be needed for the iPhone. Again, the iPhone is not required, but is very nice to have.

Fishmonger, since I wanted a device that worked with the Iridium system I found the cost of the phone much higher. Hence my decision to just go with the InReach. I do understand your point about actual voice connection offering better communication than text, but for my occasional use I felt the two way text was sufficient, particularly when coupled with the Iridium System.

Steve, thanks for fixing my link to the picture gallery.

John

Re: Spot Me questions
John Sims #28200 10/01/12 11:16 AM
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You're welcome, John.

I missed that 63ChevyII asked about battery life. On the spot, it will last 10 days to 2 weeks. I turned mine off for several hours at a time when I was on an obvious trail or easy course.

Re: Spot Me questions
Steve C #28227 10/02/12 08:29 PM
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At some point, I'll try to write up a summary of all the gizmos out there. The basic message is that there's no one magic solution for all situations.

There's a lot to be said for Satellite phones. They can both text and use voice. One of the Inmarsat phones can track; text, voice and has an emergency activation button. It runs off a geosynchronous satellite so, if you get a signal, you won't lose it. If you don't have a signal (about a 30 degree horizon), you're totally out of luck. Good for probably 90% of where you're going to be.

Irridium phones are good, but don't expect more that 3 to 8 minutes of voice in most Sierra terrain. Texting is fairly good, but may take 20 minutes to get a lock to send. Not sure they have emergency activation and tracking yet. But haven't really checked. Still, they're really dependable and useful.

Globlestar satellite phones don't seem to be that dependable (fewer satellites), though I have limited experience with them.

SPOT. Not tried these. Experience is they get out a good emergency location and track with a fairly high percentage of accurate signals. When paired with phone, you can get out a text message -- a definite advantage, though two way is better -- currently not available with SPOT.

DeLorme. As a standalone it's got an emergency signal, 3 pre-programmed text messages and tracking. It can pair with modern smart phones (Android or iPhone, iPad, iPod) or the DeLorme GPS to get two way texting. Seems really nice and I ran into a number of hikers using them. Warning is that the GPS sucks down batteries (AA) when in paired mode or tracking mode. Pretty annoying. Not sure about battery life when paired with a phone. The standalone unit seems to have good battery life. You can choose to have the emergency call-out to go either to SPOT command (monthly fee) or a user-created list of up to 5 email or cell phones.

SHOUT! Nano or GeoPro. These are really good, but designed and marketed for agency use.

Although there's a lot of bad press about people hitting the emergency button for trivial reasons, most of the calls in my experience are legitimate. It's a huge advantage to know the exact coordinates and the problem (outbound text messaging). It's even better if the agency can ask questions (inbound texting or voice).

All stuff to consider.

George


None of the views expressed here in any way represent those of the unidentified agency that I work for or, often, reality. It's just me, fired up by coffee and powerful prose.
Re: Spot Me questions
George #28228 10/02/12 09:22 PM
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Welcome back, George! How was the new cabin at LeConte?? smile

Sorry I missed you back there this summer...

-L


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Re: Spot Me questions
MooseTracks #28430 10/11/12 03:29 PM
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Great new cabin -- incredible workmanship! Good chance it'll even keep out mice.

Maybe see you next year!

g.


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