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Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
saltydog #40134 09/08/14 04:35 PM
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It's not stated, therefore, it should be assumed he did not ask for an exemption.

You cannot guarantee with absolute certainty, will not sleep east of Trail Crest and between Donohue Pass and Happy Isle. If you pass through and area with a canister requirement you must have a canister.

Let's try this one on for size, I get a permit for the MMWT and I do not take a canister of any type with the idea of staying at Crabtree Meadow but stay at Trail Camp instead. According to all y'all, I'm not in violation because I intended to go to Crabtree Meadow. My next unintended stop in Chicken Spring Lake...same circumstances, again, I am not in violation in a canister area. Your argument does not make sense to me.

All this sounds like to me is a meetup group or the Sierra Club get multiple permits for for San G and hike as single group.

Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
wbtravis #40141 09/08/14 08:05 PM
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I don't see why an article's failure to mention something means it didn't exist. In fact, like you, I suspect he had neither a bear canister nor special dispensation. I don't know either of those things to be a fact, of course; I just suspect it. But I am not about to label someone a law violator based on facts that are unknown to me.

Regardless, based on the text of the regs that Salty found, even if he lacked a canister and lacked special dispensation, he may be okay depending on where he camped, a/k/a where he "store[d]" his food, as opposed to where he "transported, consumed, or prepared [his food] for consumption," a distinction made by the regs themselves.

Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
wbtravis #40142 09/08/14 08:26 PM
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WB: You are making a fallacious argument. No one is arguing that if he actually stayed in the WZ - or Rae Lakes, or DUck Creek - there would be no violation. The bearcan is required in the WHitney Zone, therefore if you stay there without one, bzzzzt!!!! If you don't stay there, no violation. It's really very simple.


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Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
saltydog #40155 09/09/14 08:44 AM
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How is it a fallacious argument? You cannot guarantee any travel is going to go as planned. See the trail runners caught with their pants down earlier this summer...or without proper gear for what could happen that did happen. Based on your reading of this, I do not need a canister to do Mt. Whitney via the MMWT based your reading of the rules all I need to do is not follow my itinerary then make up a story, if stopped by a LE ranger.

If you pass through areas with canister requirement you need to have a canister. You cannot guarantee you are not going to be forced to overnight there...by weather, illness or injury.

I have been told this multiple times by multiple people at multiple ranger stations/visitor centers over multiple years in the Inyo. Based on that I have tendency to believe what I have been saying to be true.

Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
wbtravis #40160 09/09/14 10:17 AM
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Okay, you really want the scoop on the fallacious argument? The first fallacy is called "straw-man". You no doubt have heard of that. You are arguing against a proposition neither Karen nor I have made: namely that there would not be a violation if you camp in a canister zone without a canister. Clearly there would have been. But he didn't and there wasn't. Which brings us to the second fallacy, known as "hypothesis contrary to fact". You suppose circumstances that did not occur.

You can't ticket somebody for what might happen, only for what they actually do.

And you are still making the straw argument when you say "Based on your reading of this, I do not need a canister to do Mt. Whitney via the MMWT based your reading of the rules all I need to do is not follow my itinerary then make up a story."

That is not what I am saying and it does not follow from what I am saying. SO far, you have not cited a single rule, reg or forest order to support your interpretation: only what you have been told over the years.

I have pointed you to both the NPS regs and the USFS regs. Look, a lot of rangers will tell you a lot of things for a lot of reasons: most very well intentioned, others not so much. For example, based on your apparent Whitney experience, I'll bet you have been told you must carry a wagbag in the WHitneyZone and you must pack out your waste. But there is no such rule, regulation or forest order. Its a policy that Garry Oye introduced into some published material years ago with no authority whatsoever, after he (illegally in my opinion) burned down the toilets at Trail Camp and Outpost. Another example is the supposed "no backtrack" rule from trailheads in Yosemite. You ask two Rangers about that one and you will get three different answers.

I know what you have heard, but I also know what I have read, and guess what, under our system its what the rules say and what the courts say that matters, not what, with all due respect, the rangers or even the agency brochures say, that matters.

So yeah, If I am irresponsible enough to camp in WZ or at Rae Lakes or Rock Creek without a canister, fine my ass and I will pay it. But ticket me while I am moving through Mclure Meadow, or over Mather Pass because I MIGHT have camped at Rae Lakes without a canister, or have been in the WZ without a WagBag, I'll see you in court, where you can explain to a US Magistrate what you have heard as opposed to what the regs and forest orders actually say.


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Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
wbtravis #40182 09/09/14 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbtravis


If you pass through areas with canister requirement you need to have a canister. You cannot guarantee you are not going to be forced to overnight there...by weather, illness or injury.



I admit that I have only been casually following this discussion, but I need something clarified here:

The above statement makes it sound like a dayhiker would need a bearcan if he/she were in the Zone? (because something may happen and turn their dayhike into an overnigher?)


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
Bee #40183 09/09/14 06:35 PM
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I wish this thread would get back to the incredible story of the hike.

Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
Harvey Lankford #40184 09/09/14 06:39 PM
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Bee & Harvey: I agree with you both.


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Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
saltydog #40186 09/09/14 07:27 PM
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Ditto.

Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
Akichow #40189 09/09/14 09:13 PM
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Soooooooooooo . . . helluvan accomplishment, eh?

OK, Another thing I admire - I almost hate to suggest it - I don't see one word about sponsorship. It was a completely solo, non commercial effort. Amateur in the highest sense, not amateurish. Very much like Brett Maune, he just jumped in and went for it for the sake of doing it.

That sets a standard.


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Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
saltydog #40190 09/09/14 10:47 PM
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It really IS an accomplishment. Nothing like conditioning for it by doing the entire PCT in 93 days. grin

Andrew Bentz obviously found the perfect blend of pace and nutrition to put his body through such a grueling exercise ...and succeed.

Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
Steve C #40197 09/10/14 08:31 AM
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Oh my, where is that strawman, again. I did build up something that wasn't pertinent only to knock it down. I said there are canister requirements at Whitney, Rae Lakes and Yosemite. True statements. I was told at many places by those who should know the rules that if you pass through area you need a canister. True statements. If he went without a canister based on the latter statements he was in violation of the law.

Me thinks, you should learn what a strawman argument is.

Again, I will say for the at least the 3rd time this was a heck of feat.

Re: Fastest JMT time: 3.5 days
wbtravis #40201 09/10/14 09:32 AM
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Time to burn that straw man down. Just STOP already!

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