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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
saltydog #40830 10/29/14 08:57 AM
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Salty Dog,

You missed my scarcasm.

It's only property crime is what those who do not agree with harsh punishment will say to lessen her sentence.

As to cleaning up your mess...punishment that exceeds the ability to pay for it has been found to be cruel. You can't put someone in debt for the rest of there lives.

A drunk driver who kills someone rarely is sentences more than a few handfuls of years and get paroled in half the time. We as a society anymore rarely make the punishment fit the crime. If we did, there would only be a few people on death row today...the rest would be rotting in hell.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
wbtravis #40834 10/29/14 12:51 PM
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WB, you advocate making people pay for SAR costs when the costs are triggered by stupidity or negligence.

Similarly, an arson found guilty of starting a forest fire can be held responsible for paying all costs related to suppressing that fire they started.

Making her pay to clean up her graffiti mess seems very similar. I'm surprised you're not taking that position on this one. The paint cleanup costs are probably not that much more than painting it in the first place (transportation, materials, time). Certainly less than flying helicopters on a SAR mission, and a whole lot less than fighting a big fire.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
SierraNevada #40843 10/29/14 10:03 PM
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  NPS Link
Quote:
National Park Service Press Release
For Immediate Release: October 29, 2014
Contact(s): Jeffrey Olson, jeffrey_olson@nps.gov 202-208-6843


Suspect Named in Vandalism Case at Eight Western National Parks

Public asked to be patient as investigation continues

WASHINGTON – A 21-year-old New York State woman, Casey Nocket, has been identified as the primary suspect in recent vandalism cases that affect eight national parks in the western United States.

National Park Service investigators have confirmed that images were painted on rocks and boulders in Yosemite National Park, Death Valley National Park, and Joshua Tree National Park, all in California; Rocky Mountain National Park and Colorado National Monument, both in Colorado; Crater Lake National Park, in Oregon; Zion National Park and Canyonlands National Park, both in Utah.

Investigators continue to collect evidence of the crimes, conduct interviews, and are consulting with the U.S. Attorney's Office about potential charges. We ask the public to exercise patience and allow due process to take its course as the investigation moves forward.

The image in Rocky Mountain National Park was reported to the park and removed in late September before similar images were found in the other national parks.

Ice and snow now cover the image at Crater Lake National Park, and it may not be accessible for assessment and clean up until next summer.

An image in Yosemite National Park was removed by an unknown person or persons.

If people visiting these parks come upon these images, they should contact the nearest park ranger with information about the image location. Visitors should not attempt to remove the images.

The National Park Service was contacted on October 20 about this vandalism case. The investigation began immediately.

www.nps.gov

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
SierraNevada #40849 10/30/14 09:25 AM
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Let me make my SAR costs position clear...Let a board of people knowledge in the disciplines...hiking, trail running or climbing determine the percentage of fault. Multiply that by cost. Then, some combination of fine and community service.

If you start a forest fire...as people have done above my house 3 or 4 times over last 27 years, if found guilty they should be incarcerated for very long time. I have heard the words prepare to evacuate too many times.

My position here is she should have to pay for the entire clean up, including chaperons, transportation, material, etc. I know the criminal justice system will not allow this. It will be substantially less than it should and there will be people cheering. Again, this is a property crime...we don't put armed felons in jail long enough, drunk drivers, etc. What make you think this will be any different?

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
wbtravis #40852 10/30/14 12:22 PM
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That's more clear and more in line with what I thought your position would be, WB. It was confusing reading your posts about cruel punishment and concern for putting people in debt with fines.

I wouldn't be so sure about how this will end, a creative judge might surprise us all. I still think she should be offering to clean up her own mess as the best way to get this behind her.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
SierraNevada #40865 10/31/14 08:58 PM
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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
Akichow #40874 11/02/14 09:54 AM
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Yeppers, that is the main problem here. The narcissistic Miss Nocket will never be asked to pay full restitution for this reason. People who do this need a certain level of skill and experience...something she will never be made to acquire.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
wbtravis #40895 11/03/14 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbtravis
Yeppers, that is the main problem here. The narcissistic Miss Nocket will never be asked to pay full restitution for this reason. People who do this need a certain level of skill and experience...something she will never be made to acquire.

Can you phrase your speculation as a prediction, please. The odds are in your favor, but you're just guessing about what might happen.

As for her cleaning up the mess, the article says they use plastic kitchen spatulas to scrape the paint. Maybe that's skilled labor in your opinion, but I see no reason why she can't be trained to do that.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
SierraNevada #40903 11/04/14 09:09 AM
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SN,

It is speculation on my part based on what has happened in the past in criminal cases. Most do not pay full restitution and no individual is bankrupted by the courts.

Then, there is motivation. How do you motivate her to do the repetitive mind numbing stuff quickly, efficiently and without doing further damage? I have seen people trying to erase the orange and white painted stripes, which are on rocks and trees going up Ice House Canyon in Cucamonga Wilderness. It's not pretty and the results are less than satisfactory; therefore, most of the damage still survives after at least 7 years...and added to last year on two other trails in the area.

This is my exercise area and feel disgust every time I pass this crap. If I ever see anyone doing it...it will be ugly.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
wbtravis #40904 11/04/14 12:00 PM
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WB,

You're probably going to be proved right about all this, but I'm hopeful for a better outcome. A skeptical optimist. Bit of an oxymoron, but I've been called worse.

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