Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Hiker trash- WAG BAGs

From the posts here and on the Whitney Portal site- It sounds like some friendly user maintenance is due. I'll be carrying a stronger trash bag on my trips on the mountain- to pick up abandoned Wag Bags.

It doesn't do any good to bitch about the @#%* who left them- a) they are't there or on these sites;and b)obviously don't care. Educate if you see someone leaving a bag; but once its left- not their problem.

If we wait for "the imaginary bag person" or a Ranger to pick them up- Whitney will start to look and smell like Everest with its trash. I don't like people trashing "my yard" when I walk in National Parks; and pick up non bio-degradable stuff when I see it. I carry protective gloves and purell anyway for first aid and keeping my hands uncontaminated when using my bags; so its no big deal. I carry a trash bag to put my used bags in, and carry it on the outside of my pack to keep accidents from happening in the pack; so one or two more in it won't matter.

If we each picked up one or two WAG Bags on the way down; the view, odors and flying critter situation would improve.

If you're not part of the solution- you're part of the problem.....

Hey JAGCHiker, thanks for the extra effort to pick up WAG bags. A lot of people including myself think this WAG bag solution is not the best way to go for this situation. Even so, it doesn't help to whine about it and nobody should leave their WAG bag behind. There's a long thread on this forum with lots of background history and current info about this topic at Solar Toilets vs Carrying WAG Bags

Thanks again for being one of those "imaginary bag people" picking up after others.

Thanks for the positive comments.

The Wag Bag vs. Toilet Facilities discussion is the bigger 'poop" issue that will take a year or more to resolve planning and resource/budget issues; even if the Forest Service wanted to do something today. I'm not saying they don't want to; it just takes years to implement a project of this scale in the government; as touched upon in the discussion.

I appreciate toilet facilities; such as those on Mt Rainier and the Grand Canyon Main Trails. Having talked to those who service the different types that have been used; I also understand the challenges involved to maintain such facilties. I also see the misuse of them and the deposits left between them - when nature calls triggered by heat/exhaustion; so they are not a 100% cure all.

What I didn't see in the discussion were immediate solutions to the poop issue. We have to go, there are no facilties, hard to bury above the tree line(where the fatigue/exhaustion caused issues occur; let alone the overnight use impact), and a procedure that is different than one is used to(LNT practice). This is a practical solution we each can do to improve the environment, until a better solution is implemented.

If we don't take positive action ourselves to protect the Mt. Whitney environment from human caused biohazard/pollution/poop & tp; more regulations could be developed to further restrict the area's use. If special interests are so concerned about SEKI and horses/mules- what is to stop these concerned parties from filing to save Mt Whitney because of human poop all over the mountain?

The effects of popularity- more use-generates more abuse- resulting in a place that we don't want to go to, or gets restricted so we can't....

This WAG BAG question is interesting after all the discussion regarding pack stock use in another thread.

I have backpacked in the Sierras for over 40 years, and have seen no improvement vis a vis reduction of human waste in the mountains. Many people seem to think that if "nobody sees my poop and used toilet paper" that it's okay to drop wherever it is convenient to them. I can take you to areas along the Bishop Pass trail where used toilet paper, candy wrappers, ciggie butts, broken glass, fishing equipment, etc. continue to reappear, even after packers and others have made the effort to remove it. It would take a small army of volunteers and months of work to pick up all the stuff near my favorite trail.

Most of my backpacker friends are pretty considerate and careful with what they leave behind, but the more occasional, vacation trip backpackers seem to be the major offenders. There seems to be an attitude among some people that goes along the lines of "Oh, well, I won't be back here, so it doesn't matter if I leave a little trash; it's out of sight behind the bushes." Please, don't ask me to give you "official statistics" on this, because I don't think such a study has ever been done; backpackers are a much more elusive target than packers. And...packers are much more responsible than the average backpacker.

This will really annoy the "Whitney Addicts" on this forum, but I think really severe restrictions are needed on the Whitney trail. Like what? 1) No more day trips permits to the summit, 2) restrict the number of overnight trips per party to once per year, 3)cut the number of overnight trips from the Portal to six permits per day, 4) allow a maximum of four people per permit, 5)allow Portal originating overnight trips to July and August only. The Whitney Trail needs a long overdue rest from its hiker generated abuse.

Yes, those would seem to be "severe restrictions" alright.

Interesting that rules on pack stock in the wilderness are apparently too strict and should not be modified, but we need these hiker rules on Whitney? I'm just saying...

Oh Bob, you've just kicked over the hornet's nest. I did that a some years ago on the other board suggesting a very high fee structure to limit traffic on the MMWT...if limited use is what you want to accomplish. I hope you've got a good flame resistant suit.

Actually, Bob, if one is looking at the spirit of Wilderness, your suggestions are much more in line with that philosophy.

I believe that if someone sued on that basis, something similar to what you've proposed would be the result.

I think the real problem here is the reason all these folks are even going up the mountain - the paved highway to the top. If it wasn't so easy you could Segway up the main trail, perhaps the volume would drop, and the quality of climber would improve on average - hopefully with matching higher quality behavior.

I find that someone suffering a little more for a goal tends to have more respect for that goal and the area they are in.

That being said, I honestly don't give 4 mule turds about the main trail. The other routes are too crowded for me as it is...the main trail can be left to the sodomites, etc. I'd imagine after I try for the east face/buttress route this summer, I won't head up Whitney again - too many other beautiful and less-traveled mountains nearby.

Ah hah! I think I've spotted the real problem.

The "good" backpackers are Bob's friends. It's those damn "vacation" backpackers who are desecrating the wild places.

What's the solution? Get them to backpack when they're not on vacation? Become "Backpackers who are Friends of Bob's" (BPWAFOB)'s?

And Burchey - you might look up "sodomites". Is that really what you intended to say? I mean - I know lots of people who have hiked Whitney, including myself, and to the best of my knowledge, none of them practice sodomy.

Well, maybe one or two. What they do on their own time is their business.

You might look it up - I meant it in the more historical sense, or biblical sense if you like.

Plus I just like the word Sodomites

Burchey, honestly, I saw as many wag bags by Iceberg Lake as I did by Trail Camp last year. Same day, I went up the MR, and down the MT. I used to think like you until I saw that. I was a little shocked, expecting the scramblers and climbers would take better care of their trail and environment. That doesn't seem to be the base.

Bob, I disagree. Your proposal is excessive and extreme. It'd make the wilderness less accessible to people. There are people who trash it regardless, but if most folks cannot experience and access places like Whitney to appreciate, they'll also not care what happens to it as well.

I agree with Burchey that there are much more beautiful and spectacular peaks all along the Sierra. Give people the Whitney trail and places like Half Dome. There are hundreds if not thousands of places for others who want something to say other than I've been to the highest point in the contiguous U.S. I'll leave it at that.

Probably one of the best opinion-based posts I've seen online.

Concise.

Logical.

You don't belong here

Not sure if I've heard this one, but how about a Whitney Education Class that could be held every day for 30 minutes at the Visitor Center where permits are picked up. The class could be mandatory for first time hikers on Mt Whitney. The class would be held once a day at a specific time, and if you don't attend, you don't hike :-) You're already in the computer if you've already hiked.

I think one of the problems with the current system is that potential hikers actually have to read what the rules are on Whitney. Making it mandatory for hikers to sit and listen to a ranger educate hikers could do wonders. I know people are told the rules as they pick up permits, but they are usually so excited to pick up their permits and the rest of their party is off looking at a 3-D map..... Just the idea of making them sit still for 30 minutes while someone relays the do's or dont's may help...... and as a control freak, it just makes me feel better.

There is that ugly attitude again: I've seen the Sierra, so now it's time to keep all the commoners out.

Calihawk best responded to that thinking in the Half Dome thread:


Mt Whitney is a rock. It'll still be there in a million years, well after our civilization is gone. Wag bags left behind do not affect the rock, and limiting access will not affect the mountain. The wag bag problem is a current one that affects the rest of us, but it doesn't really affect the mountain. We can and should work to find solutions to the WAG bag problem, but no matter what we do, Mt Whitney will be just fine.

Agree 100%. If these rules were in place, I wouldn't have had the hut at the summit as my goal after surviving cancer and a hip replacement. Same can be said of several hikers from both sites.
Anyone who's been at the summit, knows the incredible and sometimes spiritual experience many people have at the summit, including survivors, wakes for loved ones and just plain achieving a goal that is one of the only goals you can have that is difficult, but attainable.

Way to go Steve

Yes, I've got on my flame retardent suit; looks like it will get a workout. That's what I get for offering a few overly-extreme solutions to a problem that some people on this forum would like to ignore. I confess to being a pot-stirrer, but sometimes that's what it takes to get people to wake-up and do something about a problem.

So, Steve, since you felt free to throw a thinly-veiled insult in my direction, what solutions to the wag bag and trash problem would you like to suggest? Or would you rather just leave things the way they are? I can't believe you like the current situation regarding wag bags.

You falsely assume that I am one of those who want to "keep the commoners out," but you missed the point in your haste to pass judgment on a wilderness philosophy that you might not share. When it comes to the wilderness, I will always be a "commoner," just a temporary visitor.

I confess to being a pot-stirrer, but sometimes that's what it takes to get people to face up to a problem. Oh boy, I'd better really button up my flame retardent suit now...ha ha.

I like people who stir the pot, keeps things interesting.

I like people who smoke the pot.

Not to derail the topic, but I saw two on Skyline. I had to do a double, make that a triple take. The nose doesn't lie though.

What's even more funny is that they caught up to me in about an hour and then flew past me like I was standing still. I know I'm slow on the trail, but didn't realize I was that slow. Shock and awe.