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 Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Apr 2012
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OP
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So, following up on my other post, I wanted to see if there was any overall sound advice before I attempt two firsts next week, one being doing some actual mountaineering and two, my first summit on Whitney.
I'm leaving CA after growing up here for 26 years in 2 months and my job will likely never see me back here so I've been knocking out a few things before I go (did a motorcycle trip up the coast highway a couple months ago, total blast and everyone must do it).
Wanted to see if you guys had any overall arcing advice and things to remember/consider?
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Sep 2009
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From your post April 15: I've never done Whitney before, I've hiked San Jacinto without an ounce of altitude sickness. My plan was to hike up to base camp on Mon, hang out the night, summit the next day then head down the backside and spend the night, hike back up the third day and summit and depending on time either spend the night at base camp again, or time permitting, make it all the back to the portal and head home.
San J. is 4000' lower than Mt Whitney. It is quite likely you will experience AMS if you go all the way to Trail Camp and spend the night. (Trail Camp is 2k higher than the summit of San Jacinto.) You will know when you wake up in the morning. I'd see a doctor and get some Diamox just in case, and learn the recommended dosage (1/4 to 1/8 of the dosage for glaucoma). This is your first time on Whitney. Thinking you will pop over Trail Crest with a full pack to spend the night at Guitar lake is a nice fantasy. Just getting yourself to the summit and back will be a nice first. Seems like you have studied and prepared much for this trip. Good luck!
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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First time winter mountaineering on Mt. Whitney. Good luck.
I've been doing this for 5 or 6 years seriously in SoCal and before I would attempt the MR in the winter...yes it's still winter up there, I would do in the summer when there is no ice or snow about.
What stops me from doing MR this time of year is not knowing what the final 400' looks like. Even with my skill level, I would not attempt this without someone who has been up there previously but that's me...I'm the chicken of the mountains.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Apr 2012
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Thanks for the tips, I didn't mention it earlier but I'm a pilot, I've been up to 12000 ft in an open cabin before, probably got there from sea level in about 30 mins and never got any sign of sickness.
Again, I plan on being ever vigilant of the fact that even though its never happen before, doesn't mean I won't get it in the future. Plus I think I have a pretty sound plan on acclimatization. Head up to the portal Sunday, trail camp Mon, summit Tuesday.
I plan on returning sometime in July if I dont summit, I have the next couple months off till I leave. So I don't have that "do or die" mindset this time around.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
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I'm in SD, if you want to grab a beer/coffee and chat about your plans/gear, I'd be happy to share my experiences on Whitney. Trail camp is only 1000 feet higher that gorgonio summit, and this won't be a winter climb. There will be snow (not a ton), but winter is colder and has shorter days. Look for Richard P's regular reports/pictures on either this or the other Whitney board - he mostly does the main trail and takes a ton of shots to show the conditions. http://piotrowski.smugmug.com/
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Thanks for the tips, I didn't mention it earlier but I'm a pilot, I've been up to 12000 ft in an open cabin before, probably got there from sea level in about 30 mins and never got any sign of sickness. Well that is a bit different. That is why I wrote, " You will know when you wake up in the morning." Popping up to high altitude, and then dropping back down in a short time does not give whatever it is in the body time to get screwed up. It is a slower effect, like the development of edema (swelling/fluid where it shouldn't be). My point is that flying for an hour at 12k is not like camping for 8 or 10 hours. I'd still get the Diamox. ...in fact, take Burchey up on the beer offer. Ask him about his last trip, and meeting our friend Ralph. 
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
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I'd still get the Diamox. ...in fact, take Burchey up on the beer offer. Ask him about his last trip, and meeting our friend Ralph. Great point - hydration is key. Not getting enough fluid can totally ruin your time at altitude, I tossed up some nice dry chunks on the way down from the summit a couple weeks back, with 1.5 liters of water in my pack. It's easy to get excited and forget to hydrate. All this and more I'll reveal to you, should you choose to risk your life and heed my advice...muwahahhahahaaa! Side note: This thread has become toxic! Side note #2: Testosterone poisoning!
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Sep 2009
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I'm leaving CA after growing up here for 26 years in 2 months and my job will likely never see me back here ... I can relate. I was born and raised in SoCal my first 28 years, met and married my Ohio-born wife while we were both at the same college in SoCal, and then we ended up moving back to Ohio (she was homesick). At the time, it seemed like an adventure (new place, further east than I had ever been, different climate, severe weather (I'm a storm chaser kind of guy), etc.). Now, it's flat, endless green, no vista type views, humid and bug-infested during the summer, with long crappy winters, and worst, NO MOUNTAINS! I always expected that, after a time, we would one day move back to CA. But the "life event" after which we would "maybe" move back kept getting changed along the way, and now, like you, I don't ever expect that I will get the chance to move back there, at least not when I can do anything meaningful once I'm back (if it happens). So get in what you can while you're there. You won't regret it.
CaT
If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it. - Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Side note: This thread has become toxic!
Side note #2: Testosterone poisoning! Burchey, since you love stirring the pot so much, you're now in charge of cooking for my JMT BP this summer.
CaT
If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it. - Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey, since you love stirring the pot so much, you're now in charge of cooking for my JMT BP this summer. CaT I am moderately appalled... and a little hurt... 
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
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Cat, I'm all booked up. If I was free, I'd do it for a fellow Ohioan, even though you didn't sprout there. Isn't it a hell-hole? Don't you love how we ruin our lives for our significant others? It's the best!
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Sep 2009
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> I am moderately appalled... and a little hurt... I think CaT wrote that just to get you to commit to bringing him a resupply. 
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Nov 2009
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deceased
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deceased
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Steve,
My first time up Whitney was with a 70-pound pack for a 70-miler over the Great Western Divide to Sequoia National Park. The first day I packed to Trail Crest, dropped my pack, summited Whitney, then donned my backpack to head down to Guitar Lake to catch my first Goldens. That first day went well--as planned. Five days later I was at the General Sherman and General Grant trees in Sequoia. A great experience!
Depending on a guy's conditioning, a heavy backpack over Trail Crest to Guitar Lake, including the topping of Mt. Whitney, is not a problem, but I think you well know this. For me, this was 40 years ago--back when I was 26 with all the vim and vigor.
Ha! I just noticed my 40th anniversary goes with my 40th posting. Interesting coincidence. (I think my good friend RichardP started the year before me. And my other good friend, BobR, is celebrating his 60th anniversary this month! A fantastic congrats to BobR!!)
Last edited by Wayne; 05/08/12 07:23 PM. Reason: 40th anniversary
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Have to agree with Wayne. My first backpack up the MTMW involved a 53 lb pack. First up and over Trail Crest was 63 lb.
Although it wasn't 40 years ago...
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Wayne and Laura,
You had to remind me of my first time over Trail Crest. My back still hurts from the 50+ pounds. I told myself it was 45 at the time but it was closer to 60.
I was using and 80 L, 7 lb. pack and had stuff hanging off for a 7 day trip to Whitney Portal from Horseshoe Meadow...a trip I do today in 3 days.
My current winter snow camping pack weight is less than that haul.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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It's not just conditioning, it's pacing. Accepting the heavy load and a slow stride will get you pretty much anywhere. I think it took me 8 hours to get to trail crest with that big load.
I remember heading up the switchers that day, stopping every 10 switchbacks to sit and rest for at least 5 minutes. Only casualty was my pants-seam, which split wide open, I'm embarrassed to admit. I spent the next 2 weeks running around the Sierra with duct tape holding my pants together.
No hurries, no worries.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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> I am moderately appalled... and a little hurt... I think CaT wrote that just to get you to commit to bringing him a resupply. Nah... Just throwin' some more good ol' testosterone on the campfire (having nothing to do with cooking, the JMT, or resupplies, actually). CaT
If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it. - Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Cat, I'm all booked up. If I was free, I'd do it for a fellow Ohioan, even though you didn't sprout there. Isn't it a hell-hole? Don't you love how we ruin our lives for our significant others? It's the best! Sounds like you did the opposite and moved from Ohio to SoCal. Good move. Although I didn't sprout in Ohio, it's an appropriate choice of words, given the effluent of endless flat green in the state. Regardless, marrying my wife (of 33 years) was anything but a ruinous choice. Quite the opposite.  CaT
If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it. - Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
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Regardless, marrying my wife (of 33 years) was anything but a ruinous choice. Quite the opposite. CaT Yeah, my girl googles me and reads these forums too. Good save.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Apr 2012
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OP
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I appreciate the offer, I'm not sure if I will have time to take you up on it though. I'm actually leaving Saturday, not Sunday as I thought.
I think at this point there isn't much more I can do other than just do it.
I've noticed bear canisters aren't a requirement at this point, but plan on picking one up anyways. I bought some of those odor bags, but read on here that really don't work.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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I've noticed bear canisters aren't a requirement at this point, but plan on picking one up anyways. I bought some of those odor bags, but read on here that really don't work. The odor bags would be useful for containing the odors of your WAG bag. Yes, take the canister. (it's not the bears, it's the marmots!) Unless you want to worry about the critters getting into your food, you will take a canister. They chew through anything and everything (except a canister) to get the last crumbs!
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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I've never had a bear bother my food but I have had the elfin bears do damage. Most problems with food are from user error.
I have left food out and walked away to do something and a Trail Camp Marmot, a different breed as far as I'm concerned, walked away with all my breakfast foods.
You don't need a canister above the tree line. However, your food has to be hung so the little non-climbing varmints can't get to it.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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You don't need a canister above the tree line. However, your food has to be hung so the little non-climbing varmints can't get to it.
Ahhh... irony... how I love thee...
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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OP
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So I went out a got a Garcia bear canister and some other stuff. I swear, for trying to do this on the cheap, this is turning out to be quite an expensive trip.
Last edited by MichaelRyanSD; 05/10/12 02:28 PM.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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You can rent the canisters from the Visitor Center where you pick up your permit, and also from the Whitney Portal Store (and maybe the W.P. Hostel).
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
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So I went out a got a Garcia bear canister and some other stuff. I swear, for trying to do this on the cheap, this is turning out to be quite and expensive trip. Had you just made time to meet, young padawan, I would have steered you away from unnecessary gear purchases, etc. You'll learn eventually. By then, it will beeee tooooo late......
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Regardless, marrying my wife (of 33 years) was anything but a ruinous choice. Quite the opposite. CaT Yeah, my girl googles me and reads these forums too. Good save. you guys crack me up!
Tommy B
Bicksler7.com
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Yeah, my girl googles me and reads these forums too. Good save.
Burchey, I think I speak for all of us in expressing gratitude for your girlfriend's taming influence. If this is the tamer, more sensitive you, I'm not sure we could handle the beast fully unleashed ;-) Brent
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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the beast fully unleashed ;-)
Bring it on. I'm bored.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
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Burchey, I think I speak for all of us in expressing gratitude for your girlfriend's taming influence. If this is the tamer, more sensitive you, I'm not sure we could handle the beast fully unleashed ;-)
Brent
Situation is this: I spend all day in an office, battling the politics, dearth of logic, and rampant stupidity that comes with such a gig. I often spend my free time trying to reason with a seemingly unreasonable creature - my woman. On top of that, I subject myself to (and have been thrown off of) online mountaineering forums that offer 5% useful information, about 80% garbage, and 15% someone getting their feelings hurt. Why do I do it to myself? In light of this information, it's a wonder that I'm as kind and understanding as I come across in my responses to often "poorly crafted posts" on the forum. My patience does have its limits. I think this new habit of putting my favorites in my signature will help with the pain. This thread has become toxic!
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Not sure how the "seemingly unreasonable creature" is going to take that one, but your posts amuse and inform. Keep them coming.
Brent
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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OP
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Made it. Wasn't that hard, more mental than physical.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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By the way, didn't really get any related altitude sicknesses. I was breathing pretty hard after trail crest though. I think if I had spent two days at trail camp may have helped.
But, for you experienced people, I did have a bit of blood in my snot, is this common or cause for concern?
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Probably not. The air is pretty dry up there, and it can wreak havoc with the membranes in your nose.
Nice work! I knew you could do it!
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Congratulations! Nice picture, too.
> By the way, didn't really get any related altitude sicknesses.
20-25% of Whitney hikers don't. You must be in that group.
> I was breathing pretty hard after trail crest though.
That's not AMS. Everyone sucks wind!
> I think if I had spent two days at trail camp may have helped.
It helps. But I'd need to spend 2 nights at 10k.
> But, for you experienced people, I did have a bit of blood in my snot, is this common or cause for concern?
My nostrils have scabs for a few days after a climb.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
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Nice job getting up, were you able to stick to your plan? You should throw up a trip report if you don't plan to already.
Also, you can't go around posting up pictures with you holding the American flag. We know what that REALLY means...you don't like Mexicans. You racist.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Congratulations.
My May trip up the MMWT remains my favorite trip up that trail.
Steve sums it it up pretty well but let me add, when I do a three day trip in the Sierra, I feel best the last day. I'm starting to handle the higher elevations better and sleeping a bit better...although sleep never comes easy above 11,000' for me.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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.
Also, you can't go around posting up pictures with you holding the American flag. We know what that REALLY means...you don't like Mexicans. You racist. Why do you think I'm leaving CA for North Carolina? It was funny because I'd say every other person I passed would ask "Are you by yourself!!!" and I say "yeah" then they would follow it up with "How much weight you carrying" and I say "About 55lbs" and they just had this priceless look on their face. To be honest though, I pretty much had a need for everything I took, except made some food and a thermal fleece. Which would have dropped my weight by 5lbs at most I'm guessing. I ended up just going up the mountain once. I realized carrying that large of a load up the chute probably had a high chance for disaster. Day 1 (Sun) - Went to trail camp, left at 915, arrived around 3 Day 2 (Mon) - Went up the chute to the summit, left at 7, got back to trail camp around 330. Ended up staying there for the night Day 3 (Tues) - Left trail camp at 7, got back to the portal around 11 By the way, from what I gathered, using the switchbacks at this point is conceivable, I saw a few people using them coming down. I would say that it would take more time than the chute do to snow patches on it, but overall doable if you don't want crampons or an ice axe. 
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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I checked my pictures from May 2007, the last light snow year. The two of them look like they were taken at the same time. However, the switchbacks were blocked at the cables in 2007.
If people were going down that way, they most likely came up the same way. If not, they were in for a big surprise when they reached them. I have twice watched people try to get through there when they were blocked...it's not pretty.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Why do you think I'm leaving CA for North Carolina? Haha, you're heading for NC as well? I'll most likely be living near Asheville next year this time. No es porque no me gustan los mexicanos, sin embargo. Quiero vivir cerca de la familia. Way to set a goal and attain it. The mountains in NC will prove to be much less of a challenge I'm sure.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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I'll be in Ft.Bragg, just outside of Fayattville . Playing Army.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Would that be Fayetteville?
If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracle of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it. - Lyndon Johnson, on signing the Wilderness Act into law (1964)
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
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YOU CAN'T GO ROUNT THIS HEYA PLACE MISPELLIN AND SUCH!
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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If Adam leaves my state without even one climb with me I might shoot myself. 
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Burchey
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Burchey
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If Adam leaves my state without even one climb with me I might shoot myself. OH, we'll get one in for sure. I bet you'll just wait for the right moment to push me off a cliff. Dead!
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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OP
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There is certainly some spots after trail crest where such an "accident" might occur.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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OP
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One quick question, I was contemplating doing this again mid-week or so, before I leave. I realized when I got on the trail, that there was probably about a 80% no show rate, I only saw 20-30 people on my three days there.
But if I wanted to do another 2-3 day trip, how would I get overnight permits for that, I mean, how could they issue over-night permits 2-3 days in advance of dates people had reserved. And I in essence would be taking their spot in their absence.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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One quick question, I was contemplating doing this again mid-week or so, before I leave. I realized when I got on the trail, that there was probably about a 80% no show rate, I only saw 20-30 people on my three days there.
But if I wanted to do another 2-3 day trip, how would I get overnight permits for that, I mean, how could they issue over-night permits 2-3 days in advance of dates people had reserved. And I in essence would be taking their spot in their absence. You need an overnight permit ONLY for your ENTRY date. The number of nights you stay does not matter and is not considered. So you go to the Rec.gov site, and watch for a slot to open where some very nice and considerate people will cancel their reservation, or release some of their slots. You can reserve one of those slots and you are good to go. If that doesn't work, you show up at the Visitor Center at 11 AM and try to get a no-show permit from those permits where people who did not cancel or reduce their permit numbers. In the past, it has been fairly easy to get a no-show permit, but with the new system this year, we will see. When you show up to request a walk-in permit, ask for BOTH a current day entry, and a next day entry. The next day entry would be from last-minute cancellations not available on the web, and from group size reductions from people who have already picked up their permit.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
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I'd imagine, mid-week, you'd have no problem getting a walk-in permit
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,256 Likes: 2 |
I'll most likely be living near Asheville next year this time. No es porque no me gustan los mexicanos, sin embargo. Quiero vivir cerca de la familia. Way to set a goal and attain it. The mountains in NC will prove to be much less of a challenge I'm sure. Adam, what you'll gain in oxygen saturation might be offset by the damn summer humidity. Trust me - a 125-degree heat index at 5000' will suck the strength from you as badly as 13,000' in the Sierra. AMS won't be a concern but heat stroke will. You trade one monkey on your back for another, at least in summer - thin air for thick air. If/when it happens, look up John (catpappy) and myself. We're in Atlanta, just 3 hours hours south of Asheville, and try to get up into the Appalachians and Blue Ridge fairly regularly. This hike is coming up for us in the next couple of weeks, and is representative of the upper-end elevation gains you'll find here: http://www.hikinginthesmokys.com/sterling_baxter_creek.htmOther than the elevation, I think you'll find the biggest difference in the trails out here versus the west is the steepness. Trail designers out here apparently didn't get the switchback memo till a couple dozen years ago. Gains of 1000 feet-per-mile are common, and stretches of 1300 fpm not that unusual. Each year 25% or more of Appalachian Trail through-hikers quit before they're out of Georgia (the first 75 miles of the AT), mostly because of underestimating the steepness and ruggedness of the trail. And the AT is the one of the easier mountain trails in GA and NC. Yes, technical climbing is limited in these parts - severely, compared to the Sierra. But it is there. The good news is that NC has more technical climbing opportunities than anywhere else for hundreds and hundreds of miles. Laura's even made some noise recently about adding a Mount Mitchell notch to her belt. If you guys don't hook up for a climb before you leave, maybe that'll give her the motivation to finally head east with her gear. I'd pay good money to see that go down . . .
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
Unregistered
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Burchey
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Adam, what you'll gain in oxygen saturation might be offset by the damn summer humidity. Trust me - a 125-degree heat index at 5000' will suck the strength from you as badly as 13,000' in the Sierra. AMS won't be a concern but heat stroke will. You trade one monkey on your back for another, at least in summer - thin air for thick air. If/when it happens, look up John (catpappy) and myself. We're in Atlanta, just 3 hours hours south of Asheville, and try to get up into the Appalachians and Blue Ridge fairly regularly. This hike is coming up for us in the next couple of weeks, and is representative of the upper-end elevation gains you'll find here: http://www.hikinginthesmokys.com/sterling_baxter_creek.htmOther than the elevation, I think you'll find the biggest difference in the trails out here versus the west is the steepness. Trail designers out here apparently didn't get the switchback memo till a couple dozen years ago. Gains of 1000 feet-per-mile are common, and stretches of 1300 fpm not that unusual. Each year 25% or more of Appalachian Trail through-hikers quit before they're out of Georgia (the first 75 miles of the AT), mostly because of underestimating the steepness and ruggedness of the trail. And the AT is the one of the easier mountain trails in GA and NC. Yes, technical climbing is limited in these parts - severely, compared to the Sierra. But it is there. The good news is that NC has more technical climbing opportunities than anywhere else for hundreds and hundreds of miles. Laura's even made some noise recently about adding a Mount Mitchell notch to her belt. If you guys don't hook up for a climb before you leave, maybe that'll give her the motivation to finally head east with her gear. I'd pay good money to see that go down . . . I'll do my best to look you guys up, and I'm no stranger to summer humidity and how bad it gets - I'm from Ohio, and often took summer trips to the South. I'll probably be doing most of my troublemaking in the snow/ice of winter, I've seen some opportunities for ice climbing in NC, etc. I've got a buddy on the AT right now, I think he's up to Virginia at this point. He climbed a rickety old tower like that on Shuckstack or something, I believe. If MichaelRyanSD moves out to NC, perhaps we can get Laura to travel, and we'll all run around together in the hills being racist with a big American flag. Sounds like a date to me!
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 33
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OP
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 33 |
Uh, why bring an American Flag? If your going to do something worth doing, don't half ass it
I'll be whistling dixie entire time, while carrying one of these bad boys
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 582
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 582 |
Laura's even made some noise recently about adding a Mount Mitchell notch to her belt. If you guys don't hook up for a climb before you leave, maybe that'll give her the motivation to finally head east with her gear. I'd pay good money to see that go down . . . Ahem... when do I ever "make noise"... <chuckle> Burchey, baby-doll, precious, come and get your fragile flower. I'm dying to play. Especially since now you know how to make fire.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Burchey
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Burchey
Unregistered
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Ahem... when do I ever "make noise"... <chuckle>
Burchey, baby-doll, precious, come and get your fragile flower. I'm dying to play.
Especially since now you know how to make fire. Careful Laura, you need to work on your game. I need to chase, and you sound like you're not running any more. I might lose interest. Also, if my girlfriend reads this, she'll probably kill me and you and half the board members. This is one of the reasons I love her.
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Re: Two Firsts in One Trip
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 582
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 582 |
Careful Laura, you need to work on your game. I need to chase, and you sound like you're not running any more. I might lose interest.
I was just giving you a few minutes to catch up.
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