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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
Akichow #40771 10/25/14 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: Akichow
Please take another look at my post. The issue I was addressing isn't the jurisdiction over the crimes, but the multi jurisdictional nature of the proposed sentence. Pretty sure a court could not order that sentence. However, perhaps it could be achieved as part of a plea bargain. If the NPS was willing to play chaperone. Which I doubt.

I do think it is the most appropriate sentence for the crime, even if it probably has to remain in the realm of hypothesis.


AH, I see. I don't know a case in point, but what is the basis for the court not being able to order service in different locations? Not that it would be easy logistically, but I wonder why a court COULDN'T do it. Jail sentence, suspended, cleanup is a condition of probation.

NPS would not have to play chaperone, or at least incur any expense. She could wear a bracelet, and be required to to not only inform the Park super of her presence but apply for a special use permit, with appropriate fee, to do the removal. If the particular Park denies the permit, she has to pay the cost of removal. In the federal system, there are all kinds and levels of supervised and unsupervised probation that could accomplish this. Probably a lot cheaper for the taxpayers than hauling her around to each District and sentencing separately. Another alternative is to try her in the district where she left the most paint, make her remove that herself and pay for the rest. Some of the sites may be so sensitive that you wouldn't want someone with as little skill as she demonstrates ever touching it again.


Last edited by saltydog; 10/25/14 03:51 PM.

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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
saltydog #40774 10/25/14 05:36 PM
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I just had a late Saturday afternoon overwork-inspired idea. Also inspired by Karin's comment about the NPS chaperone. I would bet that there is at least one interpretive ranger in each of the Parks this artiste tagged qualified and willing to become familiar with the sentencing opinion of the court (which is bound to be a beaut) accompanying her to the scene of the crime, and interpreting for passers-by exactly what is going on and why, while she removes her paintings. In fact I think it could be a hugely cost-effective educational effort, worth documenting. Especially if it has some, any enlightening effect on the culprit.


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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
quillansculpture #40779 10/26/14 09:41 AM
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I heard about his yesterday hiking in Graffiti Central...San Antonio Canyon.

The penalty will not fit the crime, which is a crime itself. Especially, when the damage fixing may create more than what she has caused.

I have cataloged the graffiti along the Chapman and Ice House Trails for the forest service, much of it for direction finding in winter. I am more than disgusted by any of this stuff. If I had seen her do it, my trekking poles would have found an interesting new use.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
quillansculpture #40793 10/27/14 07:16 AM
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I think it's an awesome and beautiful thing to be inspired in nature to create art - on a canvas! I can't fathom what goes through someone's mind to put their "art" in a place like that. For how many years have humans visited these places and simply enjoyed the natural beauty without defacing it? There are so many discussions about how to keep wilderness places truly wild and natural, and then she comes along and adds this obvious human element to countless beautiful places. Shameful.

Salty's suggestion of Interpretive Ranger work made me smile, though smile

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
saltydog #40794 10/27/14 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: saltydog
I just had a late Saturday afternoon overwork-inspired idea. Also inspired by Karin's comment about the NPS chaperone. I would bet that there is at least one interpretive ranger in each of the Parks this artiste tagged qualified and willing to become familiar with the sentencing opinion of the court (which is bound to be a beaut) accompanying her to the scene of the crime, and interpreting for passers-by exactly what is going on and why, while she removes her paintings. In fact I think it could be a hugely cost-effective educational effort, worth documenting. Especially if it has some, any enlightening effect on the culprit.


Some would say it is both cruel and unusual or at least harsh. Making her clean it up at her own expense thus saddling her for life with this debt. Think of it as a student loan without the perks...again, some would find this solution cruel.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
Chris B #40795 10/27/14 07:34 AM
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Based on his post above, WB would probably volunteer to "chaperone" her with his hiking poles. wink

Because of the acrylic paint she used, this effort may require some serious cleaning, possibly strong chemicals, and result in a lot of dirty rags to remove. If the courts were to take this enlightened sentencing approach, she'd likely be working as part of a team effort. Whether she's involved directly in the cleanup effort or not, her fine should be large enough to pay for all costs to the taxpayer.

Last edited by SierraNevada; 10/27/14 11:00 AM.
Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
SierraNevada #40799 10/27/14 09:42 AM
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Searching for "Casey Nocket Arrest", I found this from Saturday, Oct 25 (link):

Quote:
Today we spoke with a relative of Nocket, who has requested that she not be named. It became clear at the beginning of the first conversation that this person was legitimately concerned for a family member's safety. While we were still introducing ourselves, that person’s voice made clear a distinct fear. We spoke for awhile about Casey’s actions, here in plain language is what we found out:

1. She didn’t go into hiding or run, she contacted the Park Service investigators and is fully cooperating;

2. She knows she did a horrible thing and is incredibly remorseful;

3. She is aware of the seriousness of her crimes and is ready to face the music; and

4. There are now people pretending to be her online, Tumblr in particular. All of her social media accounts have been deleted.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
wbtravis #40808 10/27/14 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbtravis
[quote=saltydog] some would find this solution cruel.


Really? Who? Seriously? Besides, she'll get at least one song out of it: The Ballad of Casey Nocket. You know, "Cay-sey, Ca-sey Nockett, Queen of Defiled Frontier"!

Last edited by saltydog; 10/27/14 06:57 PM.

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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
Steve C #40809 10/27/14 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Steve C
Searching for "Casey Nocket Arrest", I found this from Saturday, Oct 25 (link):

Quote:
Today we spoke with a relative of Nocket, who has requested that she not be named. It became clear at the beginning of the first conversation that this person was legitimately concerned for a family member's safety. While we were still introducing ourselves, that person’s voice made clear a distinct fear. We spoke for awhile about Casey’s actions, here in plain language is what we found out:

1. She didn’t go into hiding or run, she contacted the Park Service investigators and is fully cooperating;

2. She knows she did a horrible thing and is incredibly remorseful;

3. She is aware of the seriousness of her crimes and is ready to face the music; and

4. There are now people pretending to be her online, Tumblr in particular. All of her social media accounts have been deleted.



Looks like she may be angling for the Rush Limbaugh remedy: no finding or admission of guilt in return for probation, community service, restitution or the like. Watch this space.


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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
Steve C #40811 10/27/14 07:44 PM
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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
Akichow #40813 10/27/14 08:13 PM
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The eHow link would never fly in a National Park - soaking the rock in paint thinner, then hosing it onto the ground.

The second link is mostly about painting over graffiti, but it mentions an interesting product - Motsenbocker’s Lift Off #4. Its a water based biodegradable solvent that is highly rated, apparently even works for removing acrylic paint on stone.

Still thinking they should wipe the paint off with hand labor and rags rather than hosing it onto the ground. Even with a biodegradable solvent, the paint/solvent mixture may still be toxic.

Then there's the pressure washer, but it would take some skilled labor. The paint laden runoff would probably have to be collected somehow, and a careless operator could damage soft rock.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
saltydog #40814 10/27/14 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: saltydog
Besides, she'll get at least one song out of it: The Ballad of Casey Nocket. You know, "Cay-sey, Ca-sey Nockett, Queen of Defiled Frontier"!


LOL

"Don't Nocket that rock, my friend, Pass it on ...to me..."

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
Akichow #40815 10/27/14 10:09 PM
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A postscript.

Actually the Federal Rules do appear to require the government to prosecute an offense in the district in which is was committed unless an exception applies or the defendant requests transfer. "Unless a statute or these rules permit otherwise, the government must prosecute an offense in a district where the offense was committed. The court must set the place of trial within the district with due regard for the convenience of the defendant, any victim, and the witnesses, and the prompt administration of justice." Fed. Rule Crim. Pro. 18.

This rule appears to have a constitutional basis. "The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed." Constitution of the United States, Article III. Section 2, Paragraph 3.

In addition, there are substantial limits on judges' sentencing discretion, which generally entails probation, a fine, and/or a term of commitment. Restitution is a possibility. See 18 USC 3551 et seq.

So while I have not researched the scope of judicial discretion, even setting aside Rule 18, I continue to doubt that a court could impose the type of creative, punishment discussed here, requiring the defendant to travel from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, which also raises OSHA concerns among others, without the consent of the defendant (and agreement of the NPS). This type of sentence could also raise constitutional due process concerns. The power of a federal sentencing judge, just like the power of certain NPS and NFS officials, is not limitless.

I offer this for information purposes only as I don't really enjoy internet debates.


Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
Akichow #40816 10/27/14 10:57 PM
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Sodium Bicarbonate blasting is a good candidate, other than getting power and equipment and a ton of bicarb to the site is not trivial.

It occurs to me that if the acrylic is slathered on thick enough, liquid nitrogen might work. You've seen what it does to lettuce? Just pour it on & the paint should just shatter. I would imagine that the "tendrils" connecting it to the rock would shrink & lose grip. Easy cleanup. Transporting liquid nitrogen in a Dewar on a trail, though, is a different problem - certainly wouldn't want it in my pack if I slipped & fell.


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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
saltydog #40821 10/28/14 08:05 AM
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Who really? The same people who have decried the amount of people we have in prison for one. We have many in this country who do not like punishment for abhorrent behavior...after all this is just a property crime, no one was hurt.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
Akichow #40822 10/28/14 08:11 AM
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Akichow,

The rules imply the chances of a proper punishment are near nil. You can not fine someone into the poor house, either. About the only thing left to the public is shaming and shunning...both of which seem to be on steroids at this point but will die away in short order.

My guess...probation with a fine and community service in her 'hood. All well short of 100% restitution.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
wbtravis #40824 10/28/14 09:30 AM
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This issue got top editorial (by the newspaper editors) billing in the local paper today, and I heard an interview of the Reddit website author on the radio today. So it is becoming a national news item.

Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
Akichow #40825 10/28/14 12:44 PM
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Nice job on the FR Crim P, Aki! So without a waiver, she does get bounced around to a few districts at least, and each District Court can throw a different book at her. Also Rule 18 appears to be a venue rule, not jurisdiction, so Casey's life just keeps getting more complicated. If she takes the Rush Limbaugh plea, which looks likely, it would likely result in some kind of unified public service restitution thing.

Last edited by saltydog; 10/28/14 02:11 PM.

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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
wbtravis #40826 10/28/14 12:55 PM
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Seriously? Just a property crime? So, Bernie Nadoff should should be, what, writing "I will not defraud my friends" one million times on a chalkboard by his pool in Palm Beach?

Being made to clean up your own mess is cruel and unusual?

Tell my mother that.


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Re: Graffiti in National Parks!
saltydog #40829 10/29/14 07:11 AM
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That's Bernie "Madoff" not Nadoff. As in "made off" with all their money. laugh

Sure, it's complicated and not business as usual, but our criminal justice system should be flexible enough to require direct restitution (clean up your own mess) in cases like this. This is claimed to be a bedrock conservative value - personal responsibility (even a broken clock is right twice a day). Seems like it would be good for her as well, as a way to remove this stain on her life. She should be requesting this rather than copping the Limbaugh plea.

Last edited by SierraNevada; 10/29/14 07:28 AM.
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