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Re: Face Masks?!
bruce #57004 05/15/20 02:10 PM
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"One respected biologist", eh? And you are aware that correlation does not equal causation with respect to the Asian countries you referenced, right?

Here is a meta-analysis of numerous studies, most of which included surgical face masks (not the homemade masks and buffs most are currently using) and it concluded a "that wearing facemasks can be very slightly protective against primary infection from casual community contact."

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049528v1

And here is a large randomized controlled trial testing the efficacy of cloth face masks that cautioned against the use of cloth masks and suggested they may actually increase the incidence of illness:

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006...pe2=tf_ipsecsha

Here is the WHO in January stating there was no evidence that medical grade masks protect non-sick persons in a community setting:

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/documents/advice-on-the-use-of-masks-2019-ncov.pdf

And here is the UK's deputy chief medical officer recently warning that mask use by the general public may be doing more harm than good:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/healt...s-a9396811.html

The masks requirements, especially the ones allowing for use of homemade cloth masks, are a "feel good" measure but not one based in science. But if it makes you feel safer, then by all means continue using one. I was merely responding to an earlier comment that the "science was settled."

Cheers.

Re: Face Masks?!
DJB #57005 05/15/20 02:24 PM
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I was just responding to that bullshit study you posted. You probably missed the part where it was subjected to coughs from 8" away? More likely you didn't even read it.

Cloths masks offer some protection, not 100%. But some protection is better than none. For a study to conclude simply that they are "ineffective", because they couldn't withstand such a viral load from close range is ridiculous.

Re: Face Masks?!
bruce #57006 05/15/20 02:49 PM
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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Last edited by DJB; 05/15/20 02:53 PM.
Re: Face Masks?!
DJB #57008 05/15/20 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted By DJB
Ok, let's follow the science.
...
Now, let's move on to the mortality rate. I agree with other posters that COVID-19 appears to be highly transmissible, but it also appears to be much less deadly than the "modeling" predicted (So I guess in a way your COVID-19/climate change comparison was valid). Several antibody studies have recently been completed and the results suggest the infection rate has been much higher (to be expected given the R factor) and the true mortality rate much lower.

Events were much less deadly than the models predicted because the models warned us to change our behavior by stay-at-home. No reputable sources claimed the death rate to be the ratio of deaths to confirmed cases. It looks like your pursuit of science has enabled you to correct your false assumption.

Originally Posted By DJB

...
Furthermore, the science indicates that nearly everyone who recovers from COVID-19 develops antibodies:

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2020/05/07...rus-antibodies/
...

The article also notes that there is still no evidence for disease resistance due to these antibodies or how long any such resistance might last.

Dale B Dalrymple

Re: Face Masks?!
DJB #57009 05/15/20 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted By DJB
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.


Well this horse will drink the water from what the rest of the world drinks, thank you.

If cloth masks were ineffective, then why are they being required nearly everywhere? You can cling to a few articles or studies which support your viewpoint, but if they are being used virtually everywhere in the world, then my hunch is that they are on to something.

The WHO only says they don't recommended medical grade masks, because they should be reserved for healthcare and medical doctors and nurses. They make no mention of cloth masks. The CDC does however.

Re: Face Masks?!
bruce #57010 05/15/20 03:55 PM
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You're asking the right questions. Why are cloth masks being required nearly everywhere now when we know they are ineffective?

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspect...ased-sound-data

Re: Face Masks?!
DJB #57017 05/15/20 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted By DJB
You're asking the right questions. Why are cloth masks being required nearly everywhere now when we know they are ineffective?

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspect...ased-sound-data



Just two comments on the above link: 1. In today's world 6-week old articles aren't state-of-the-art.
2. The article was posted on Apr 1.

Re: Face Masks?!
Steve C #57019 05/16/20 07:18 AM
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Face masks are used to protect others from us, when in close proximity, not us from them. Even breathing out produces vapor carrying potential viruses. The rest of our exterior, hands, hair, clothing, etc., might also be contaminated. The following article is advice to doctors:

https://www.theapprenticedoctor.com/the-protective-clothing-surgeons-wear/

So, is anyone willing to prep and dress like a surgeon? Probably not.

What is the problem? Only the truly paranoid have anything to worry about, and that fear is what allows most of us to be easily controlled by the government.

The most hazardous place in the world is the local grocery store, not the Mt Whitney trail or any other trail.

Hike on, and don't get freaked out.

Last edited by Bob West; 05/16/20 08:21 AM.
Re: Face Masks?!
Bob West #57020 05/16/20 10:11 AM
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I totally agree with Bob.

I am 70, and the wearing of a face mask at 10,000 or higher restricts my air intact. Even at the store when wearing a mask, I can feel the warm air in the mask and then re-inhaling it again.

paul

Re: Face Masks?!
Paul #57021 05/16/20 12:22 PM
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Paul

The state and county mask rules generally don't require you to wear your mask when outdoors and well separated from other people, but when you get to the top of Whitney, if there are four jerks huddled together in the hut, coughing and pressure breathing without masks on, don't join them. OK?

Dale B. Dalrymple

Re: Face Masks?!
dbd #57022 05/16/20 01:29 PM
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Thanks Dale!!!!!

I've climbed Whitney over 24 times and climbing it again doesn't interest me at all. And you are so right about the four jerks.

Good to hear from you.

paul

Re: Face Masks?!
DJB #57031 05/17/20 11:12 AM
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Thanks for posting the various links; information that people can assess to formulate an educated decision. Those that require critical thinking in decision making, can make a very good argument that wearing masks outdoors in open, sparse areas, offer very little additional protection for transmitting or catching CoVid-19. San Diego medical examiner actually said something to the effect of we are still collecting data, but it's better than nothing. Health authorities creating edicts under emergencies should have to at least provide some sort of data supporting those emergencies orders that impact millions. I have yet to see any scientific-based data supporting the additional benefit of wearing a mask outdoors. It's better than nothing is not supportive for an emergency order. If others are so concerned about people not wearing masks outdoors, Stay Safe and Stay Home!

Re: Face Masks?!
bobpickering #57043 05/19/20 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted By bobpickering
COVID-19 is just like climate change and evolution. Some of us go with the science. Some of us ignore the science and believe whatever we want to believe.


This right here demonstrates why this subject, like so many other political topics, is in essence just another religious tract.

How is it that the most accomplished runner/hiker/climber on this board also chooses to believe his particular 'science' supports masks and social distancing?

A simple observational study conducted in any middle-upper middle class neighborhood in SoCal will readily demonstrate that men are not abiding by social conditioning mandates. Why is that? Because they have money, power & status, or that their intellect - which enabled higher achievement - also avails themselves to independent inquiry?

From an objective perspective, it really is quite fascinating. The realist in me appreciates & admires the naked power grabs being made under these times of duress. That's how the game is played; the will to power.

Still, I tend to have a soft spot for those respective dead letters ie the DoI and Constitution. Somewhere lost in the fog of time is the assertion that men are born free with certain natural, inalienable rights, that they create limited government under strict stipulations only to further advance their wants & desires to protect against force & fraud.

Anyway, all this discussion is rather moot. Soon enough, the country will be fully opened, and the great hangover, remonstrations and assessing of blame will commence. I can fairly predict that in relatively short-order, all 57 states will be holding constitutional conventions to amend their respective governing documents to ensure this shameful episode of the most base and grossest violations of basic human rights is never repeated again.

Last edited by Hobbes; 05/19/20 01:25 PM.
Re: Face Masks?!
Hobbes #57044 05/19/20 02:05 PM
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Hobbes: Um, what?

Re: Face Masks?!
Hobbes #57046 05/19/20 02:43 PM
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Utter nonsense, Hobbes, utter nonsense.

Re: Face Masks?!
bobpickering #57047 05/19/20 02:51 PM
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Not necessarily nonsense, more like poetry.

Naked power grabs can be an awesome thing to behold.

Awesome doesn't always mean good.

See you all on the trails!

Re: Face Masks?!
Halfdomer Homer #57048 05/19/20 03:16 PM
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Utter nonsense...poetry...power grabs...

Oh, I get it--Jabberwocky.

I was hoping to meet some of you on the trails, and still I am, I guess. I have permits in place for some walkabouts between 6/27 and 7/5, which I suspect is going to make June seem like forever the way that March did.

Stay sane.

Re: Face Masks?!
bobpickering #57050 05/19/20 03:36 PM
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I have been tempted to post a detailed response to Hobbes's pompous BS. All I will say, thank you Bobpickering, SteveC, SoCal Jim and everyone else who provided the voices of reason. It is nice to have you gentleman in this forum. Respect.

Last edited by Anton; 05/19/20 05:56 PM.
Re: Face Masks?!
Hobbes #57053 05/19/20 05:18 PM
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"All 57 states", you say? Was that a typo or just a matter of fingers racing ahead of the mind?

Please condense your tome into more digestible size for those of us of smaller intellects.

Re: Face Masks?!
Hobbes #57054 05/19/20 05:40 PM
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Please stay in The OC.

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