Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion PCT hiker education...question for George

George, the discussion in the Boy Scout thread got me to thinking again, about the PCT hikers, to whom I'll be talking again this year.

They have their own board, which I also read, and occasionally post to. It strikes me that there is an opportunity for education that has not neccessarily been taken advantage of.

In the following post, I will place a post that was put up today about alcohol stoves, a device that I increasingly dislike. The story is highly educational.

What I suggest, is that you mention any things that you'd like passed along, and I will see that it gets posted monthly in their email list (theirs is a mail list, not a board), and gets mentioned at the kick-off. I see that one of the main PCT information guys now posts here, too, and perhaps he will included it, as well.

Any words of wisdom?

Brick,

I've been very alarmed at the number of fires that hikers have caused,
mainly from alcohol stoves by also with campfires, burning toilet paper, or
in 2009 one putting his smoke (don't know which type) out in a tree stump at
Apache Peak. I've copied PopPop's story from 2005 below. That same year
another hiker (going by the trail Name "Fritz") started a fire with an
alcohol stove that blew over, and was actually a fugitive on the trail --
the authorities were looking for him. There was also another young woman,
whose name escapes me, who started a fire with her alcohol stove on top of
the picnic table that spread to the surrounding camp ground. She gave her
information to the authorities, but I never heard what happened in her case.
In Jester's new film, "Wizards of the PCT," one of the hikers tells the
story of setting all of his things and his campsite on fire with the alcohol
stove. In the guidebook for Southern California, they indicate the Clover
Meadows Fire in 1980, north of Kennedy Meadows, burned 5,000 acres and was
started by a "campfire" along the PCT. L-Rod

A Fire Story
Don't Learn My Lesson the Hard Way

In mid-May while hiking the PCT in Cottonwood Canyon just north of I-10 on a
very hot and windy day I stopped for the night. After setting up my tent I
cleared an area about three feet across of anything that might burn and
started cooking my supper. For cooking I put an ounce or two of denatured
alcohol in an old potted meat can. I have a wire stand for my pot and an
aluminum wind screen. When my water starts boiling my practice is to lift my
pot, move my wire stand and put the pot back on the can to put the fire out
and save any unburned fuel. As I was doing this some grass outside my
cleared area caught fire. I immediately jumped up and started stamping out
flames and kicking dirt on them. It was no use. The flames spread faster
than I could put them out and soon the fire was racing up the canyon out of
my control. While I was trying to keep the fire from spreading downwind a
small part of it spread upwind and burned part of my tent and my pack and
some other equipment. After what seemed a long time some firefighters came
and put out the fire. Afterwards they told me that fifty acres of grass had
burned. I feel very fortunate. Once that fire left my fire ring I had no
control over whether it was fifty acres or fifty thousand or more
importantly whether anyone (including the firefighters) was seriously
injured or killed.

In the months since I have spent a lot of time thinking about why this fire
happened and how to keep anything like this from happening to another hiker.
I am a 58 year old grandfather. Young and reckless is not the problem. I
have thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail and done most of it again in sections.
Inexperience is not the problem. I am a pilot and a sailor. My collateral
duty in the Marine Corps was Safety Officer. A casual attitude about safety
issues is not the problem. I was not cooking in or around my tent or
equipment. I cleared off what I thought was a big enough ring and was as
careful as I could be. No fuel was spilled. After the fire my pot was
sitting on top of my stove which had unburned fuel inside. I thought I was
being careful. I was wrong! What I know now is that my concept of the risk
involved was purely theoretical. The reality is that on an average day in
Southern California there is more risk of a serious fire than on the worst
day I've ever seen at home on the East Coast or on the AT. When the
temperature is over one hundred, the humidity is low and the wind is
blowing, things dry out very quickly. Ironically in a year like this when
there has been a lot of rain the risk is worse because there is more to
burn. I've also considered the type of stove I was using and whether using
my old MSR would have kept this from happening. I don't believe it would
have. What I know now is that I could not have been careful enough and the
only sure way to keep this from happening was to eat a cold supper.

In California there are serious criminal and civil penalties for causing a
fire like this. The personal feelings of guilt and remorse are serious as
well. It is impossible to describe the helplessness I felt watching fire
spread up that canyon. I can't imagine what it would feel like had there
been serious property damage or personal injury. I hope that others will
read this and realize that if this happened to me it can happen to them. A
pot of Lipton Noodles is not worth it. Please be careful!

Ken,
disclaimer first: I personally have never used an alcohol stove, not being fanatical about the small weight saving and clean burn issues.

Factor (A): "As I was doing this some grass outside my
cleared area caught fire."

Is part of the problem also due to Factor(B): more difficult to see alcohol flames which might catch something on fire, or Factor (C) the (too)lightweight contraption gets knocked over. Of course that could happen with some of the top heavy pocket rocket gas stoves as well.

Factor A : will never go away (how much cleared area in a windy, 10% humidity zone is 100% foolproof?)

Factor B : Maybe if alcohol suppliers (or campers) put in color additive, then the risk of not seeing flames could be reduced.

Factor C: will never go away, especially with my big feet around.

Harvey

I am curious why more hikers don't switch to those super light Titanium Esbit Wing Stove stoves using the Esbit tablets.

...My son used an alcohol stove because "word on the street" was that they could always find "Heet", the alcohol, in local automotive stores, but that Esbit tablets weren't as readily available.

If that is the main reason, it doesn't seem too big a deal to get the tablets stocked in stores that hikers frequent.

At least using a tablet, if it gets kicked over, a fuel tablet would stay in one place.

Don't get me started!

As an avid Esbit user, I asked myself the same question on many occasions. It's my perception that people are passionate/fanatical about alcohol stoves.

After all comparisons are made, there are no real advantages of using an alcohol stove. Alcohol costs less, but you can't mail it and it can be tough to find along the trail. Alcohol boils water faster. When comparing 8 minutes to 13 minutes to make dinner, does it really matter? Are you in a rush?

Solid fuel is lighter than canisters, gas or alcohol, you can mail it and it's a complete no brainer to use. You don't even need a stove, 3 tent stakes and a rock work just great.

Ironically, many alcohol stove users will carry a solid fuel tab such as esbit as a backup or emergency fire starter. Go figure.

In the PCT FAQ I've made an extra effort to warn folks on the dangers of alcohol stoves. Some folks may say that 3 major forest fires by alcohol stoves in 5 years is no reason to be an alarmist. I strongly disagree.

Using alcohol that disperses, while burning, in windy conditions in a tinderbox like southern/central california is dangerous and irresponsible.

Keep this photo close as a constant reminder if you must carry an alcohol stove.

Whew! Rant over.

-postholer

FWIW... I love the esbit tablets, its what Momma and I carried on both our Whitney attempts. I always bring them up and discuss them as a possible fuel when I give my trainings...


Here in San Diego they're readily available and both REI and A16...

Harvey, good thoughts.

Factor A is a real issue. Understanding that i'm a bit of a ultralight fanatic, I thought that the alcohol stoves were a Great Leap Forward. I think I own a couple. The problem comes to the actual use. There is a need to be meticulous and attentive. I tend to be, but I don't necessarily want to bring that on a trip all the time.

Factor B: There are no suppliers for stoves, only other uses. I'm not sure what you could add, that would make the flame more visible, reliably. Napalm, perhaps?

Factor C: There is always that, and stories related to that, every year.

I went through my "Esbit Phase", using commercial stoves, homemade stoves, and built-on-the-spot stoves using rocks. Man, I had some pretty tolerant hiking companions. I just could never like any of the Esbit options, I guess mainly because the heat output is poor. There are times where it can be a real challenge to get water to boil. It's probably the thing to use in a tent fly, because it doesn't flare, and I can't imagine it producing enough heat to light a tent on fire.

I finally decided on one of those lightweight ti canister stoves with a 110g can. Lasts me about 4 days. Weight is small, fast, convenient, cheap.

However, most times for 3days, I go cold, nowadays.

Ken, what are you referring to by "those lightwight ti cannister stoves with a 110g can"?


> There are times where it can be a real challenge to get water to boil.
When I use the Esbit tablet stove, I use a 2-cup aluminum cup (and thinking about upgrading to a slightly larger titanium one). I put the dinner to be heated into the cup and add water to the top, then put it on the fire. I never follow those instructions to boil the water first.

By trying to get it to boil first, I'd be wasting all that heat to the atmosphere while the water is heating. Instead, the water AND dinner heat together. What I have found, is that a good freeze-dried dinner (I love Mountain House brand) can be prepared to an edible state without ever heating to boiling. In fact, I just watch the cup, stirring occasionally, and when it is warm enough, I start eating. When the food is too hot for me, I just blow out the fire, and enjoy the food. No need to boil anything. I can get a dinner out of little more than half a tablet.

> It's probably the thing to use in a tent fly, because it doesn't flare
I'd be VERY wary of any stove near a tent fly. I worry that the heat above the stove, just from the exhaust, could cause nylon fabric to melt/shrink. I'd only use the stove in a tent if wind/weather prevented its use outside.

By the way, with the titanium wing stove, I always create a small aluminum foil cylinder (about 4" diameter x 3" high) to go with the stove and use as a wind screen. Also a foil square to go underneath if there is only forest duff (and no flat rock nearby) for setup.

That's exactly how it's done.

Not only does this practice work for solid fuels, it works for any stove. Together with a well fitting wind screen, your fuel consumption is at an absolute minimum.

-postholer

and, as everyone knows,
if you boil dinner at the top of Whitney, it occurs at only 185F so it would take less energy

is that true? ... there is less O2 pressure, so the fire burns slower and longer to get to that 185, thus has more losses on the way up, therefore does it end up actually being less efficient and burn more fuel to get to 185 than a fire to 212 at sea level?

some heat physics expert might care to speculate. otherwise.....

A) No, you will not save energy reaching a lower boil temp at altitude.

B)You have less O2 available, thus, you will have to "lean out" your fuel to equal the avialable O2. Initially, you will burn less fuel, however, you will need to burn it longer because the BTU will be lower.

C) Is 185 less efficient than 212 at sea level? You will end up having to burn/cook longer to maximize available heat, so I would say "Yes".

FYI: The physics law that applies to this whole process is Boyles Law (explains the effect of atmospheric pressure changes)

Ken:

I agree -- I've never really understood the alcohol stove thing. Seems kind of obsessive compulsive by some... .

But NPS does usually send someone down to give a pep talk at their hiker-launch get together. Not sure they talk about fire danger though. In the parks, that's not usually an issue. I'll pass that on, though, for the next crew that goes down there.

In addition, I also have to say that PCT hikers don't seem totally into the program. A disproportionate number of them seem to be ONLY into mileage and not into respecting and taking care of the land they're moving (very fast) thorough. Boy Scouts, at least, have the excuse of poor leadership. PCT hikers don't have that.

g.

Water boils at a lower temperature at elevation due to a lower air pressure. Can't comment on the resulting loss of fuel efficiency due to the O2 reduction though. But I suspect the fuel inefficiency due to O2 reduction at altitude is not too severe.

As far as cooking goes some things need an actual temperature to be reached. Cooking at a lower temperature for a longer time won't do it. This would probably apply more to baking and not so much to rehydrating freeze dried food.