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Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
#58023 09/01/20 11:52 PM
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I think I've already asked a question about the MR, but I now I have a follow up question. A friend and I have done a day hike for Shasta on AG and some fun class 3 scrambling in Yosemite. Now we both really want to do Whitney via the MR this June. The snow stuff doesn't really bother me too much, but my main concern is ice on the final 400. I've never done scrambling in icy conditions, and while we'll have our crampons on, I don't know how treacherous the final 400 can get during June. Neither of us plan on carrying any protection besides a helmet. We plan on descending via the main trial. Does anyone have some insight into this?

Edit: I saw this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrxcL4neDkc&t=1040s) and it honestly doesn't look that bad. We do plan on doing this route in a day and getting an alpine start (maybe 2amish) at Whitney Portal. My only other worry then becomes doing the Eledges at night, but from what I can see it just looks exposed and not technically demanding. I'm not sure if this is a good idea though. We will have headlamps, of course. Although, if anyone knows of an ideal time to leave for a dayhike to avoid doing the ledges in the dark, that would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by climby_climber; 09/02/20 12:48 AM.
Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
climby_climber #58024 09/02/20 06:36 AM
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Check out the ledges the day before. No permit needed and not over an hour from the portal. Once you know the way the darkness is not a problem with a headlamp. Here's a link to the Ebersbacher Ledges route. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iy-s_Ezz1Ek0_k-Uhvq6e9kRPwwbTNXT/view?usp=sharing

Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
RenoFrank #58026 09/02/20 09:23 AM
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Oh yea, that sounds like a good idea. From the looks of it, it really just looks like a short walkable section. Since we won't have heavy packs with backpacking gear, I doubt it really should be all that big of an issue with losing balance. Do you know what an ideal time to leave would be to do the MR in a day? I would like to think we're in shape, but I don't want to take any risks. Perhaps I would like there to be some sunlight at the ledges section (so maybe be there by 5 am ish). I don't know if that's reasonable or not.

My main worry is really just the section above the notch. That's where it seems like is the most deadly, but the rock doesn't look too bad. My highest climbing grade is like a 5.10b and I've done some exposed class 3 scrambling. I boulder a lot in my university's gym, and I've gotten really comfortable on the rock over the past few years. My worry really isn't the rock, it's mostly there being ice on the rock. But from most of the videos the rocky section looks pretty clean with a snow chute leading you to the top. But then again, being at >14,000 ft for that section is no joke and I can't translate what I can do at sea level to that altitude.

Last edited by climby_climber; 09/02/20 09:26 AM.
Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
climby_climber #58028 09/02/20 10:33 AM
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If you watch Steve C.'s videos of the Ebersbacher Ledges a few times, you won't have any problems at all, even in the dark. I found it to be one of the easier parts of the MR!

As for the conditions on the Final 400 (above The Notch), there's just no telling what the winter will bring. By the time you have to put in for the lottery, you'll have a better idea of what the 2021 snowpack will be like.

Last edited by Adam Schneider; 09/02/20 10:34 AM.
Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
climby_climber #58029 09/02/20 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by climby_climber
We do plan on doing this route in a day and getting an alpine start (maybe 2amish) at Whitney Portal. My only other worry then becomes doing the Eledges at night, but from what I can see it just looks exposed and not technically demanding.

June brings the longest days of the year, and your should really not need to leave that early. Even a 5:00 AM departure "should" have you back at the trail head by 7:00 PM. Well before dark, and that allows 14 hours total. Even if you did end up going until after dark, you would be covering the easiest part of the trail at the end of the hike.

Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
John Sims #58030 09/02/20 05:04 PM
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Alright then, that sounds good. Have you done the final 400 by any chance? Do you know how that usually is in June with the snow and whatnot?

Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
climby_climber #58031 09/02/20 09:18 PM
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It is almost impossible to predict the route conditions so far in advance - a lot depends on how much snow we will get this winter. In any case, you should be able to comfortably navigate mixed terrain in crampons (5.10B TR skills are useless for that) and move quickly. Lots of people bail at the Notch because they find the final 400 intimidating. Keep this in mind and have a back up plan in case you have to turn around before summiting - a descend via NF trail in the dark is not nearly as easy as descend via Main Trail. Also, keep in mind that snow conditions in June will vary significantly over each 24 hour cycle. Consolidated snow will feel like a paved road but afternoons could be post-holing nightmares. Lastly, the final 400 has numerous variations - you can always traverse on dry rock (and take off crampons) if the snow level is low.

Last edited by Anton; 09/02/20 10:26 PM.
Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
climby_climber #58032 09/02/20 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by climby_climber
Alright then, that sounds good. Have you done the final 400 by any chance? Do you know how that usually is in June with the snow and whatnot?

I have done the Mountaineer's route, but it was in Sept., 2012 - a very dry year, so there was little (or no) snow. So, my experience is very limited, and is not worth so much for your particular endeavor. Of course I have no clue as to what the weather will be 9 months from now, but my SWAG (simple wild ass guess) is that you will have a good bit of snow and ice to contend with. I say that based on having read trip reports over the course of the last 9 or 10 years. I would recommend using the "advanced search engine", and search trip reports for Mountaineer's route, and then reading those written in June. I do think you will find that most of the time there is substantial snow and ice. If it were me, I would make that assumption, and plan accordingly, and only begin to finalize my planning next April or May. If you are not sure of your skills dealing with those conditions you have time to take some course(s) on winter climbing, or you could even sign up for a guided hike next Spring. See: https://www.sierramountaineering.co...y-guide/winterspring-mountaineers-route/

Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
climby_climber #58033 09/02/20 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by climby_climber
All right then, that sounds good. Have you done the final 400 by any chance? Do you know how that usually is in June with the snow and whatnot?
I’ve been up and down the Final 400 in all kinds of conditions and in different times of the year, so I’ll try to answer this one.

From mid-summer until the first fall storm, you can expect to climb the Final 400 mostly, if not entirely, on dry rock. There may be snow or a little ice, but it should be easy to avoid. The blocky rock on climbers’ right is often a good way to avoid snow. At any other time of the year, you just don’t know what to expect more than a week in advance. On three trips up the Final 400 in June, I found dry rock, firm snow, and soft snow.

When the rock is dry (free of snow and ice), you’re just dealing with class 3 rock, which shouldn’t be a big deal. If you have to climb some firm snow, it’s somewhat harder. You may climb the whole thing with crampons and an axe. Slow down, focus, and think about every crampon and axe placement. You should practice climbing rock with crampons and axe somewhere else where a fall isn’t going to be serious.

Ice can form, even in the summer, when snow melts and re-freezes. If there isn’t much ice, you can probably sneak around it. If there is a lot, you will need some mixed-climbing experience and better crampons and boots. The Final 400 is not the place to teach yourself these techniques.

Softer snow can also be a problem, especially early in the year. (There was a lot of it the last time I was there in April 2019.) Soft snow may not support your weight, and it can make it hard to see or feel the rock underneath. It will make the climb less fun, and probably more dangerous.

Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
bobpickering #58034 09/03/20 10:03 AM
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Alright sounds good, I guess I just have to wait to see how the conditions turn out. I've read everywhere here that the final 400 is class 3 but other forums and videos describe it as a class 4. I know you've told me that ratings can be arbitrary, but is there some more difficult route that people are accidentally taking that makes it a class 4?

Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
climby_climber #58036 09/03/20 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by climby_climber
Alright sounds good, I guess I just have to wait to see how the conditions turn out. I've read everywhere here that the final 400 is class 3 but other forums and videos describe it as a class 4. I know you've told me that ratings can be arbitrary, but is there some more difficult route that people are accidentally taking that makes it a class 4?
One of my pet peeves is the systematic inflating of ratings. The East Face of Mt. Whitney, the Swiss Arete on Mt. Sill, and the Southeast Buttress on Cathedral Peak were all 5.4. Now they are 5.7, and there are almost no routes left between 5.0 and 5.5 (except for Polemonium Peak from the U-Notch, which jumped from class 4 to 5.2). This is like clothing manufacturers marking what used to be a size 10 dress as size 6. Actually, it’s worse. Fooling women into thinking that they are thinner than they are won’t get anybody killed. Fooling climbers into thinking they can climb three grades above their actual abilities is dangerous.

Yes, ratings are somewhat arbitrary, but we shouldn’t change ratings unless there is a consensus that the original rating was wrong. Keep in mind that all ratings assume that subsequent climbers find the easiest way up the route. If you get lost, deliberately go looking for something spicier, or just don’t bother finding the absolutely easiest way up, you may climb something harder than the intended route. That doesn’t make the original rating wrong.

As for the Final 400, there are many ways to go. If the route is dry, most of the variations will be class 3. If there is a swath of firm snow all the way up the middle, you shouldn’t have much trouble. Things get interesting when the conditions are more mixed or include ice.

I’m going to close with two bits of unsolicited advice: First, I would just schedule your trip later, so the snow and ice won’t be an issue. The air is thin at 14,500’, and you will have to climb about 1,500’ of rock, though most of it will be pretty easy. You don’t need the extra complication of snow and ice.

Second, I’m guessing that you are young and fit, but not very experienced at mountaineering. If I guessed wrong, I intended no disrespect. I suggest that you spend a lot of time climbing and hiking, wherever and whenever you can. Practice route-finding. Look at small cliffs and boulder problems from a distance and imagine how you would climb them. Focus on finding routes and estimating difficulty before starting up. Then see how well your routes work. This kind of practice will help you find your way up the Final 400. I hope this helps.

Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
bobpickering #58038 09/04/20 12:54 PM
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Hey Bob, thanks for the reply,

I agree that poor conditions can get pretty treacherous. I have no interest in going if that's the case. I just said June because I assumed that would be around the time where the snow should be more or less firm while the rocky sections should be manageable. It's way too early to tell since the lottery hasn't even opened, but I will change plans accordingly on how the conditions turn out. We were just looking for a snow and rock climb, and this route seemed to offer both. As for the ratings, based off of what I can see in the video, it looks well within my capability. It's probably foolish of me to assume that just based off a few videos, but I don't really have that much of an issue with turning around if it really does that bad.

And no offense was taken. I am more than happy to admit that I am not too experienced in mountaineering. It's just that a ~45 deg snow climb along with a class 3 scrambled seems like a really, really fun way up Whitney. I actually read a review of the route on AllTrails and this lady said "this route is extremely dangerous, you're making class 5 moves on the Final 400, and if you're at the notch, just go to the summit and don't descend because it'll be too dangerous to descend via this route". I feel like she just wasn't prepared and this isn't good advice. But then again, AllTrails probably isn't the right place for info either.

I am concerned about the altitude. When I went up White Mountain Peak, I could really feel the thin air and doing a class 3 scramble at that altitude seems like a bad idea if I just came from sea level. I plan on arriving a few days before and acclimating by camping above 10k. We plan hiking out to the e-ledges the day before so I could set up electronic breadcrumbs on my phone to know where exactly to make the important turns. I'll be using caltopo on my phone for navigation and we'll have a total of 3 phones and a portable charger. I'm hoping that's sufficient as far as route finding is concerned, but we'll be really happy if we can just follow another group. As much as I want to prepare beforehand, I'm in northern Indiana for college so there aren't any mountains/boulders. The closest thing I can do probably is route finding up some engineering building.

Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
climby_climber #58039 09/04/20 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by climby_climber
We plan hiking out to the e-ledges the day before so I could set up electronic breadcrumbs on my phone to know where exactly to make the important turns.
I wouldn't rely on electronics to get you through the Ledges; the GPS signal bounces all over the place in there, and you could easily be 50m off at any given moment. Photos and videos will be much better guidance.

Re: Mountaineer's Route June(ish)
Adam Schneider #58040 09/04/20 07:28 PM
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I wouldn't rely on electronics to get you through the Ledges; the GPS signal bounces all over the place in there, and you could easily be 50m off at any given moment. Photos and videos will be much better guidance.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll lurk this forum again once climbing season begins to see what pictures people have taken during that time...and maybe pester a few people here and there for images of the most important turns. I plan on using electronics for just general navigational purposes from the lakes so we don't go off too much off route.


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